Auditing Process and System to TS 16949 - SMMT Industry

[TPM Slave]

Ive recently been on an SMMT Indusrty Forum TS16949 Seminar, During an explaination of the auditing process, It was said that if you audit the system while auditing the process, there is no need to schedule for both, just schedule for processes. Im not sure whether to start doing this as we have TS assesment in June.
Please can I have your suggestions on this matter?

[Sam]

TPM,
The requirement of the specification is to perform three types of audits:
- Quality management system,
- Manufacturing process,
- Product.
Internal audits ........ shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.

Having said this, I deferred to the "IATF Guidance to ISO/TS 16949-2002" (Page 24), and find this bit of "guidance";
"There are many approaches to analyse quality management system, product quality and process performance. In the context of the internal audit clause, internal audit for the organization should be independent of those having direct responsibility for the work performed. Personnel should not audit their own work"

Still nothing definitive.
The AIAG supplier auditor course did not dicuss QMS or product audits or schedules. The primary focus was process audits.

Still, nothing definitive.
IMO, perform the audits in whatever combination that you decide as long as you have defined the process and maintain a schedule for the three types of audits.

IMO, however, you might find it impractical to combine a QMS audit with a Process audit.
Actually, no one has defined what a QMS audit really is. Is it a process audit itself, or is it just an "element" audit as suggested by the IATF "Quality System Checklist"

[TPM Slave]

I audit each of the 5 main elements as "system audits" and each manufacturing and supporting processes (purchasing) as "process audits", The standard states you SHALL audit both, but it does not say whether they should be seperate audits or not, therefore I think there is a loop hole which enables me to schedule for both but do them together (covering elements within the process audit).
But I think will start doing this after the TS assesment (Im a chicken!)

[Steve Z - 2008]

I am new to TS and auditing to the TS standard. Our registrar tells me that I have to generate an audit schedule and that the schedule needs to list the the Customer Oriented Processes and the applicable clauses that would apply to each.
His example was Management Responsibility and the applicable clauses would be all of 4 and 5 and 6.1
How do I know if I have all the COPs covered and all the respective clauses that would apply to each?
How does a system audit fit in?
Does anyone have a schedule that I can peruse?
Help

[Howard Atkins]

In Reply to Parent Post by TPM Slave

Ive recently been on an SMMT Indusrty Forum TS16949 Seminar, During an explaination of the auditing process, It was said that if you audit the system while auditing the process, there is no need to schedule for both, just schedule for processes. Im not sure whether to start doing this as we have TS assesment in June.
Please can I have your suggestions on this matter?

He is right,
Let me give you my view:
When you perform a process audit whether it is a manufacturing process or an administrative process such as purchasing you audit the manner in which the inputs were turned into the outputs.
To do this you audit according to the legs of the turtle:
With what
With who
How many
How
You in fact audit the system through the process. Just as document and record control are not audited separetly but in the context that the auditor is then the resource management or management commitment is audited where you are and the same with all other aspects, it is just a matter of connecting the clauses and showing that you have covered them all.
You need better trainaing as there are no specific questions based on the actual activity but you could add some if you wanted.

You have the Cop's covered because they are the processes that you audit, the SOP's and MOP's are the legs of the turtle.

Attached list of questions and links to the process that I have from somewhere, I forget now so no acknowledgment.

The confusion is I think the addition of clause 8.2.2.2 which only says that if you have say 4 manufacturing processes then you must audit them all. This has no connection at all or any requirement as to the manner of the audit, it is not a requirement for an audit in a process manner. In the past it was possible to audit the system for say process control/ inspection etc whilst only auditing one manufacturing department. Now you cannot.
Does this clear it up?

[jkittle]

Looking for a supplier audit check list for new potential suppliers in a ISO 9000/2000 or TS format. Does anyone have one they would share?

[chaosweary]

In Reply to Parent Post by jkittle

Looking for a supplier audit check list for new potential suppliers in a ISO 9000/2000 or TS format. Does anyone have one they would share?

There are tons of them in the files section of this site. Here is one more for the archives though.

[jkittle]

Thank you for your help.