Question about ISO 9001 Registrar Audit Checklist - No more checklists?

[Donald Duck]

As a CQA, I am really confused in.

To prepare for the coming ISO 9001 audit from BSI, I asked the audit checklist and get the feedback from BSI auditor: "I am not sure what you mean by a "checklist" We customize our assessment checklist at each assessment visit, the customization is based upon your current QMS documentation. Perhaps, to clarify the term, if you could provide (e-mail) me with what have received as a "checklist" in the past, I woyuld then be able to give you a more informed reply.?!"

What's going on? I misunderstand the audit process? why a professional auditor do NOT know what is checklist?

[mshell]

Perhaps you should request an audit program (this should include the departments/processes to be audited). Typically that is provided after initial certification.

I doubt any auditor would give you a detailed checklist of the questions they will be asking.

[Tom W]

I agree with mshell - with the process approach auditor are getting away from standard checklists and are using your documentation as a checklist persay. They do a documentation audit to verify the shalls and then audit that you are following your own system. It might be "old hat" to use a checklist. There are generic checklists available for IOS and TS but they are not used that often in my experience. Maybe on a registration audit but after that they audit your processes. JMHO.

[David Hartman]

I noticed during our certification audit in December that our BSI auditors (two of them) neither one used a checklist. Their questions were more-or-less off the cuff, but pertinent to, and dependent upon, the process they were reviewing at the time.

Now as a side note. When our BSI auditors reviewed our internal audit files (which contain a generic process-based checklist) there were no comments on the fact that the checklists themselves were not completed (i.e. there were no written responses to each of the queries posed on the checklist); but when a separate BSI auditor performed a continuing assessment at one of the assembly plants, she issued a minor finding for the fact that the internal audit checklist did not contain annotations for each query on the checklist (whether positive or negative). And before you ISO guru's begin chiming in, no our documentation does not require any annotations to the checklist queries.

[lindal]

In Reply to Parent Post by ddhartma

I noticed during our certification audit in December that our BSI auditors (two of them) neither one used a checklist. Their questions were more-or-less off the cuff, but pertinent to, and dependent upon, the process they were reviewing at the time.

TUV was using prepared checklists two years ago, and provided you with the completed checklist after the audit. In fact, at that time the auditor recommended we use their checklist to generate our own checklists for internal audits for the coming year.
I've haven't seen a BSI auditor use a checklist, either.

Linda

[Wes Bucey]

In Reply to Parent Post by Linda LaVine

TUV was using prepared checklists two years ago, and provided you with the completed checklist after the audit. In fact, at that time the auditor recommended we use their checklist to generate our own checklists for internal audits for the coming year.
I've haven't seen a BSI auditor use a checklist, either.

Linda

Just MHO, but asking for the auditor's checklist in advance is like asking the teacher, "Can we have a copy of the test in advance?"

The implication being: "We are only going to set up to deal with the questions on the checklist."

[David Hartman]

In Reply to Parent Post by Wes Bucey

Just MHO, but asking for the auditor's checklist in advance is like asking the teacher, "Can we have a copy of the test in advance?"

The implication being: "We are only going to set up to deal with the questions on the checklist."

Perhaps but, during my 15 years of auditing one of the ways that I found to help eliminate the "us-Vs-them" attitude was to provide the auditee with a copy of my checklist at least a couple of days prior to my arrival for the audit. This did provide them with the opportunity to correct any minor issues that they could ahead of time (most major issues could not be "covered up" in just a couple of days - to many records), but isn't this a real example of the proverbial "Win-Win Scenerio"? After all the purpose of the audit was to help them find their weaknesses/areas for improvement, so whether they found them with the aid of my checklist or by my pointing them out - did it really matter?

Addtionally, this practice lays all my cards on the table which leads to them trusting me more. After several years of handling audits in this fashion, I often had workcenter supervisors and department heads ASKING me to come and audit an area that they were responsible for, but were unsure whether the problems they had could be attributed to the system/process.

Quality department personnel (including auditors) can be team players, and still maintain their integrity.

[Donald Duck]

Strongly agree David! According my education for quality audit, a checklist should be provided to the auditee prior of the audit, normally 2 weeks. The basic goals for a quality audit is not to "find problem" but should be "find the opportinuties for improvement".

Bucey, you agree?

-------------
Donald