The Elsmar Cove Forum and Site Map The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page

Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO and IEC Medical Device Related Standards > ISO 13485 - Medical Devices - Quality Management Systems


The Elsmar Cove Forum SideBar!
Monitor the Forum
Monitor New Forum Posts
New Threads Feeds
RSS FeedRSS Feed
Sponsor Link










$ Contributor Forum Access
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:


Howard's International Quality Services

Atul's Symphony Technologies

Dave Scott's Scott Quality Solutions

Praxiom Research Group


NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest Portal

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology

ASQ - American Society for Quality


All the Important Standards and Related Web Sites in the World
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30th March 2004, 11:34 AM
Scott Catron's Avatar
Scott Catron Scott Catron is offline
True Artisan

Registration Date: Aug 2003
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Age: 43
 
Posts: 499
Thanks Given to Others: 34
Thanked 102 Times in 82 Posts
Blog Entries: 1
Karma Power: 52
Karma: 850
Scott Catron is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Scott Catron is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Scott Catron is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Scott Catron is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Scott Catron is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Scott Catron is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Scott Catron is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.
Question Contract Manufacturing Pre-Qualification? How much 'due diligence' to satisfy the FDA

For the first time I've been in this job we're going to use a contract manufacturer. We will supply the bulk solution and they will package it in one-time-use applicators. This comes at the request of a customer who previously had supplied the bulk solution to this third party, but now they just want to buy the complete package from us. The specifications are all in place, the third party has been doing this for about five years for our customer and has been through a couple FDA inspections without an FDA-483 being issued. From all indications, they have a solid operation.

My question is what sort of pre-qualification is required - how much 'due diligence' do we need to do to satisfy the FDA should they look into the arrangement? Is a review of procedures sufficient? Do we need an on-site inspection before we even ship them material to use? Should we be on-site when they start up? Being on-site does add some non-trivial costs to the arrangement - they're in Connecticut, we're in Utah.

I didn't find any FDA guidance documents addressing this. Anybody have experience is something like this?

Thanks in advance.

Scott
__________________
I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. -- Steven Wright
I'm a moderator here, so if you need help with something, feel free to ask.
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 30th March 2004, 11:50 AM
Aaron Lupo's Avatar
Aaron Lupo Aaron Lupo is offline
QA-LA

Registration Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rochester, NY
Age: 39
 
Posts: 897
Thanks Given to Others: 5
Thanked 37 Times in 30 Posts
Karma Power: 71
Karma: 722
Aaron Lupo is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Aaron Lupo is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Aaron Lupo is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Aaron Lupo is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Aaron Lupo is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Aaron Lupo is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Aaron Lupo is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Catron

For the first time I've been in this job we're going to use a contract manufacturer. We will supply the bulk solution and they will package it in one-time-use applicators. This comes at the request of a customer who previously had supplied the bulk solution to this third party, but now they just want to buy the complete package from us. The specifications are all in place, the third party has been doing this for about five years for our customer and has been through a couple FDA inspections without an FDA-483 being issued. From all indications, they have a solid operation.

My question is what sort of pre-qualification is required - how much 'due diligence' do we need to do to satisfy the FDA should they look into the arrangement? Is a review of procedures sufficient? Do we need an on-site inspection before we even ship them material to use? Should we be on-site when they start up? Being on-site does add some non-trivial costs to the arrangement - they're in Connecticut, we're in Utah.

I didn't find any FDA guidance documents addressing this. Anybody have experience is something like this?

Thanks in advance.

Scott
The FDA part 820.50 states that you need to evaluate your suppliers, establish the requirements (including quality requirements). It is up to your orginization to determine what or how much control you need to have over this supplier. So it is up to your orginization to determine if you need to perform an on-site audit of your suppliers or if can evaluate them through your inspection process/records. IMHO I would not audit unless you really feel it necessary.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 30th March 2004, 12:36 PM
Wes Bucey's Avatar
Wes Bucey Wes Bucey is offline
Quality Manager

Registration Date: Sep 2003
Location: Illinois
 
Posts: 7,540
Thanks Given to Others: 182
Thanked 1,128 Times in 763 Posts
Karma Power: 397
Karma: 11095
Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISO GUY

The FDA part 820.50 states that you need to evaluate your suppliers, establish the requirements (including quality requirements). It is up to your orginization to determine what or how much control you need to have over this supplier. So it is up to your orginization to determine if you need to perform an on-site audit of your suppliers or if can evaluate them through your inspection process/records. IMHO I would not audit unless you really feel it necessary.
When I last dealt with FDA, the guideline from the FDA guy who visited us about "contract manufacturers" was simply:
Quote:
You are responsible for assuring they have "Good Manufacturing Practices."
If we (FDA) get an "itch" or a "tickle" about the product, WE will launch an inspection of them and hold you responsible. You make the decision about what gives you confidence in the contract manufacturer.
In Scott's case, I think the very minimum would be a questionnaire completed by the contractor about his methods. If it does not seem straightforward enough to you, it seems you may have to travel out east to confirm statements in the questionnaire. If you feel comfortable, talking to your customer, ask them how they confirmed the GMP of the contractor. Maybe they have on-site audit reports to give you copies.

$$$The cost of an on-site visit and audit is pertinent to the equation ONLY if the sums involved on your contract with your customer are very small (value judgement.) That is, what is your financial exposure if the contractor screws up?
__________________
"Few minds wear out; more rust out"
Inscribed over the entrance of Louis Pasteur School, Chicago
Christian Nestell Bovee (1820-1904) in Thoughts, Feelings and Fancies, 1857
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 30th March 2004, 12:56 PM
Al Rosen's Avatar
Al Rosen Al Rosen is offline
Forum Moderator

Registration Date: Jun 2002
Location: Lawn Guyland
Age: 59
 
Posts: 3,103
Thanks Given to Others: 48
Thanked 390 Times in 272 Posts
Karma Power: 192
Karma: 4968
Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Al Rosen is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Send a message via AIM to Al Rosen
Default

Scott,

I agree with both ISO and Wes. You might want to get a copy of their procedures for the product they are supplying and perhaps perform a review of the records that they supply with the first shipment. Periodic evaluations can be done subsequently.
__________________
Al
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16th April 2004, 04:02 PM
Gerry Quinn Gerry Quinn is offline
Involved - Posts

Registration Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marlborough, MA
Age: 63
 
Posts: 64
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Karma Power: 31
Karma: 63
Gerry Quinn has less than 100 Karma points so far.
Default Scott

I agree with Wes. Do yourself a favor. Put the maximum controls on every supplier that are comensurate with your exposure. We it hits the fan, you won't be able to say, "Oh it wan't me it was my supplier." If you said that to me, I'd have the cuffs on before you finished the last word.

Gerry
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 16th April 2004, 05:00 PM
Wes Bucey's Avatar
Wes Bucey Wes Bucey is offline
Quality Manager

Registration Date: Sep 2003
Location: Illinois
 
Posts: 7,540
Thanks Given to Others: 182
Thanked 1,128 Times in 763 Posts
Karma Power: 397
Karma: 11095
Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Default What a coincidence!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Quinn

I agree with Wes. Do yourself a favor. Put the maximum controls on every supplier that are comensurate with your exposure. We it hits the fan, you won't be able to say, "Oh it wan't me it was my supplier." If you said that to me, I'd have the cuffs on before you finished the last word.

Gerry
By an interesting coincidence, one of my ASQ Sections had an absolutely riveting presentation last night concerning FDA visits, 483 letters, etc. right on up through criminal prosecution.

The presenters were a consultant and a recently retired FDA inspector. The gist of the presentation was that FDA has a strong agenda to be consistent in its enforcement activity globally. It is much quicker to pull the trigger on civil and criminal prosecution.

Top changes in methods include
  1. Holding top executives personally responsible. No more "passing the buck" to the Quality guy who gets fired while the company continues its bad old ways.
  2. refusal to allow goods from foreign suppliers to enter the US, thereby crippling US owner/operators (it seems the FDA overseas inspections have no need to "prove" a case against a foreign manufacturing site, "suspicion" is sufficient grounds to debar product.)
  3. Final seller is responsible and accountable for everyone in the supply chain.
  4. The time table between steps in an FDA action are considerably truncated from even 2 years ago, thanks to an improved computer-tracking system which enables every district to act uniformly with every other district
  5. Absolute willingness to do "perp walks" (execs in handcuffs before TV cameras) if the FDA senses "footdragging."
Fines have escalated drastically. A fine is a combination of "disgorgement" of any profits plus the penalty for the category of nonconformance. Recent cases have shown willingness to pursue monster fines ($600,000,000 for one!) and to get court orders padlocking entire plants.

The balance of the presentation was about strategies to pursue for companies at any stage in the continuum from first FDA visit to criminal trial.

Previous to this presentation, I had sensed an upswing in FDA presence and activity, based on gossip among many of our Section members who work for big pharmaceutical companies in our area. As a comparative industry outsider, I was pretty much stunned at the attack dog mentality described.

Before you ask, I do not think these guys were on a campaign to scare up business. If they were, it was the wrong audience. Our audience for the most part seemed to know and accept the step-up. They were most interested in the kind of documentation FDA would expect at the various stages in the continuum. This was the kind of stuff to chill the bones of any executive.
__________________
"Few minds wear out; more rust out"
Inscribed over the entrance of Louis Pasteur School, Chicago
Christian Nestell Bovee (1820-1904) in Thoughts, Feelings and Fancies, 1857
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16th April 2004, 06:45 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna Sidney Vianna is offline
Post responsibly

Registration Date: Oct 2001
Location: Long Beach, CA - USofA
 
Posts: 4,953
Thanks Given to Others: 688
Thanked 1,912 Times in 1,083 Posts
Karma Power: 467
Karma: 16797
Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Sidney Vianna is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Default FDA Warning letters

For an index and access to the FDA warning letters, check http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/script.../indexdate.cfm.

Some interesting reading.
__________________
Fighting organizational dysfunction, one post at a time.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16th April 2004, 07:12 PM
Wes Bucey's Avatar
Wes Bucey Wes Bucey is offline
Quality Manager

Registration Date: Sep 2003
Location: Illinois
 
Posts: 7,540
Thanks Given to Others: 182
Thanked 1,128 Times in 763 Posts
Karma Power: 397
Karma: 11095
Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Wes Bucey is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Screw What were they thinking?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney Vianna

For an index and access to the FDA warning letters, check http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/script.../indexdate.cfm.

Some interesting reading.
Folks not involved in FDA should know these warning letters are only issued after time has been granted to cure observations reported by the FDA inspector. The issuance of a warning letter means the organization has failed to figure out how to fix the problem or just plain stonewalled.

This one boilerplate paragraph is not a bluff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FDA Warning Letter

You should take prompt action to correct these deviations. Failure to promptly correct these deviations may result in regulatory action being initiated by the Food and Drug Administration against you or your product without further notice. These actions include, but are not limited to, seizure, injunction, and/or civil penalties
The FDA, like the FAA, does not listen to b---s---; if you can't document a cure for your Quality breakdown, don't waste your breath.

I can understand some mom and pop food operations getting in over their heads, but not major medical device manufacturers. What can those executives be thinking?
__________________
"Few minds wear out; more rust out"
Inscribed over the entrance of Louis Pasteur School, Chicago
Christian Nestell Bovee (1820-1904) in Thoughts, Feelings and Fancies, 1857
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO and IEC Medical Device Related Standards > ISO 13485 - Medical Devices - Quality Management Systems

Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors and 1 Unregistered Guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Isolator for manufacturing High Potency Products - Qualification / Validation raghu_1968 Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 6 13th November 2009 12:45 PM
PQ and PPQ - Process Qualification for medical device manufacturing waziz ISO 13485 - Medical Devices - Quality Management Systems 1 6th May 2009 05:25 AM
Machine Tool Builder Pre-Qualification Stijloor Manufacturing and Related Processes 3 27th July 2007 07:14 AM
Has Lean Manufacturing put on weight due to Middle Age? QMJones Lean - Lean in Manufacturing and Services 14 10th August 2006 07:16 PM



The time now is 02:55 PM. All times are GMT -4.
The time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



   

All Y'All Come Back Now, Y' Hear?

Made With A Mac! FreeBSD OS Powered by Apache!
Using php4 Forums provided and maintained by Marc Smith Database by MySQL

FAIR USE and CORRECTNESS NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe herein constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. In addition, I do not guarantee the correctness of the content. The risk of using content from the Elsmar Cove web site and forums remains with the user/visitor.

Responsibility Statement: Each person is responsible for anything they post in the Elsmar Cove forum. Neither I, Marc Timothy Smith, nor any of the forum Moderators, are responsible for the content of posts people make. Liability for post content resides with the poster as does interpretation and/or acceptance and/or use of advice by the reader.

Complaints: If you have a complaint with a post in a forum discussion thread, including Content in general, fighting, flaming, copyright infringement, defamation and/or 'slander', please use the 'Report This Post Report This Post Button button which appears at the top of every post in every thread.

Site courtesy of:
Marc Timothy Smith - Cayman Business Systems, 8466 Lesourdsville-West Chester Road, West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929 - USA
(513) 341-6272

To contact me, click the Google Voice link below, enter Your Name and Your Phone Number and Google will ring your phone and connect you for free!

The Elsmar Cove Web Site is *CopyFree*
no new posts