The Brits keep coming - John Seddon gets more ink in the British media

[Sidney Vianna]

John Seddon gets more ink in the British media.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...13/ixcoms.html

I would like to know from John Seddon, who now has decided to use Toyota as proof that ISO 9001 does not work, who coerced Toyota to use ISO 14001?
Let's see the similarities about ISO 14001 and 9001. Set policies, set objectives, deploy, learn, correct, improve. What a terrible concept!!!!!

And another British program: IiE Investing in Excellence.

http://www.quality-foundation.co.uk/...excellence.htm

[Steve Prevette]

I love it, I was judge reading the chapter in The Dilbert Principle on ISO 9000, and along came this. Scott Adams says "My theory: A group of bored Europeans had a few too many Heinekens and decided to play an elaborate prank on the big companies of the world". I don't know who has the better explanation - Scott or John.

- Steve

[Wes Bucey]

Originally Posted by Steve Prevette

I love it, I was judge reading the chapter in The Dilbert Principle on ISO 9000, and along came this. Scott Adams says "My theory: A group of bored Europeans had a few too many Heinekens and decided to play an elaborate prank on the big companies of the world". I don't know who has the better explanation - Scott or John.

- Steve

Actually, it was not only the beer, but that marvelous pear brandy they make in Switzerland. They put a bottle over a flower bud and let the pear grow into the bottle, then when the pear is ripe, fill with brandy.

When you have a few snifters of that brandy, a lot of foolish things start to look plausible and sensible.

[sal881vw]

So...........What's new about all this??

Does the end justify the means or the means justify the end?

[WALLACE]

Originally Posted by Sidney Vianna

I would like to know from John Seddon, who now has decided to use Toyota as proof that ISO 9001 does not work, who coerced Toyota to use ISO 14001?
Let's see the similarities about ISO 14001 and 9001. Set policies, set objectives, deploy, learn, correct, improve. What a terrible concept!!!!!
And another British program: IiE Investing in Excellence.

Regardless of Toyota's use of ISO 14001, they apparently still have no need for the ISO 9001.
I'm intrigued to know if Toyota merely use the ISO 14001 standard or, do they actually have an environmental system certified and registered?

I've just came to the Cove from another forum and Jim Wade writes that ISO 9004 was intended as the standard for management rather than the ISO 9001 standard.
My postings regarding "Auditing the task process elements" found in Auditing the Task (Process) Elements - Visual Map Attached
alludes to the intents of the 9004 management model.

Apparently in the UK, there is auditng training available for assessment of the management principles of ISO 9004.
Wallace.

[WALLACE]

Attached is a pdf doc that a past member of the Cove has recently written.
I was a great read.
The recent discussion at another forum, asked the question, are you using the guidelines of ISO 9004 in conjunction with your established ISO 9001 business management system?
The author of the attached article disagrees with the assumption that, if you are using the ISO 9001 standard, you would then naturally use the guidelines and intents of ISO 9004.
Intriguing though that, the ISO 9004 document was, as the author states, "meant to be the initial and first step in creating and developng a business management system.
Lots of food for though here. I'm still mulling the article over in my ever decreasing size of a brain.
Wallace

[Wes Bucey]

Originally Posted by WALLACE

Attached is a pdf doc that a past member of the Cove has recently written.
I was a great read.
The recent discussion at another forum, asked the question, are you using the guidelines of ISO 9004 in conjunction with your established ISO 9001 business management system?
The author of the attached article disagrees with the assumption that, if you are using the ISO 9001 standard, you would then naturally use the guidelines and intents of ISO 9004.
Intriguing though that, the ISO 9004 document was, as the author states, "meant to be the initial and first step in creating and developng a business management system.
Lots of food for though here. I'm still mulling the article over in my ever decreasing size of a brain.
Wallace

Actually, Jim Wade wrote that article about two years ago. Some of the "predictions" have an interesting take when using our 20-20 hindsight:

Originally Posted by Jim Wade

And this is exactly what has happened in many – I suspect most – ISO 9000 implementations to date: objectives are, typically, completely absent. This means the system has no purpose and that the organization, having no clear quality standards, cannot measure whether or not it is improving. It also means that a majority of organizations have been issued with a certificate for a system with a major nonconformity! ISO 9001:2000 should help redress this situation, provided that its requirement for the newly rediscovered concept of measurable objectives is taken seriously.

My take is: too many organizations have adopted management by objective, but that the objective is to satisfy customers by achieving registration/certification, NOT by creating better value and quality of products and services. Customers have contributed to this disconnect between Quality and registration/certification to a Standard by their own single-minded focus on a supply chain which is nearly 100% registered and, further, those same customers cut no slack for suppliers who are 100% compliant, though not registered, to those same Standards.

It seems to me, then, Jim has taken out on a Crusade against the wrong culprits and has completely missed a trend which was apparent to many who were writing in the ASQ Forums about the same time Jim's article first appeared on the ISO website. It further seems to me the suppliers who pursue registration are, in fact, VERY "customer-centric" and have accurately defined and satisfied the TRUE requirements of their customers.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Steve Prevette

I was judge reading the chapter in The Dilbert Principle on ISO 9000...

Is this in a Dilbert book? If so, is this the book name or what? If it's 'public' do you have a link?

I did a Google on "The Dilbert Principle on ISO 9000" and came up with nothing.