What is the Point of ISO Certification? Your company's success?

In a thread I posted regarding the possibility of a Generic Quality Management documemtation (http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8567&page=2), Mitsu11 said, "The point of ISO [certification(sic)] is your company's success".

I don't think so.

What is the point of ISO certification?

I know I am facetious... but tell me...

Why do companies want ISO certification? To be successful?

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Originally Posted by SSwanson

Why do companies want ISO certification?

Now, there's a sticky question, because to be honest many of us get it because "everyone else does", not quite knowing why...

Had the question been "Why do we use ISO 9001?", I'm sure the reply could have been "To be successful", but the certification in itself does in no way make us succesful.

I think one big reason is a need to provide (reasonably) unbiased evidence saying that we comply, by getting the registrar to state that we do. PR, both internally and externally... Which is not trivial, but in fact pretty important.

/Claes

[DDaenen1]

To me, there are 4 main items why one should get an external certification for a Management System:

1. Because it is a demand from certain customers to be certified in order to be able to quote for business/obtain business.

2. Because an external accredition body can give you, like Claes has put so refined, a fairly good analysis whether your company complies to a certain standard as much as your own assessment tells you. Fresh eyes just see more.

3. Because non-conformities recorded by an accreditation body give you more leverage towards your management to improve certain weak points of your organisation.

4. Because with being certified, a number of otherwise rather annoying/time consuming activities may be reduced such as customer audits - self-assessments which enables you to focus your resources on whats really important for the good functioning of your organisation.

There are probably more good reasons, but i feel the ones above always worked for me

[RCBeyette]

Originally Posted by SSwanson

What is the point of ISO certification?

Why do companies want ISO certification? To be successful?

I guess it all depends on what your definition of success is. I subscribe to the school of thought that we are in business to make money...plain and simple. All other aspects like contributing to society and giving people jobs are secondary to that main goal of profit.

How to make money? Well, we need a good business system and the ability to meet requirements and we need people to buy our product/service.

If a Customer's requirement is "We will only buy widgets from you if they meeting criteria x, y and z and you are ISO 9001:2000 registered", well, you guessed it. We can either choose to not to meet all of the requirements and lose the Customer and lose money, or we can meet all of the requirements and theoretically make money (yes, I know, there are other factors involved here, but I'm trying to keep this simplistic).

If the only way we can stay in business and continue to make a profit is if we are registered, then we pursue registration, it's that simple.

That's the first reason to go for ISO 9001....money.

The second reason to go for ISO 9001 is....more money.

You're meeting all of your Customer's requirements. Great! Now what? Time to focus on improvement. Where to improve? What to improve? How to improve?

A well-defined and implemented management system will have a strong planning tool integrated within the organization. Items such as process cability, supply costs, resource management, energy consumption, etc. are analyzed for areas where there are gaps and/or gains are to be had.

You spend less to provide the product/service. You can keep it at the current cost, however, and increase the spread thus increasing the profit. Or sell it at a lower cost, gain more Customers and increase the profit.

Either way, there is more money to be made.

I'll grant you that there are probably tools out there which allow an organization to make money and to make more money. The wonderful thing about ISO 9001 is that it doesn't care which tool you use...it's just standardizes it. It wants everyone in the company to use the same tool(s) in the same manner(s) - so that we all gain from the methodologies we've implemented.

There are, however, no guarantees in life. Your product/service may become obsolete. Your competition may develop a new technology allowing them to surpass you. Evolution and change and economics has us watching companies come and go. ISO 9001 registration is by no means a guarantee that your company will be successful, let alone survive...but it does provide you with the opportunity to do so.

[D.Scott]

I don't want to be argumentative but IMHO your #1 is the only valid statement. Most companies are certified ONLY because they are forced to by their customers.

As for #2 - I disagree that fresh eyes see more. The eyes of you and your customer can understand your process far more than any external auditor. I would challenge everyone here who is certified to document for us a case where an external auditor went into your plant and found a nonconformance that made you say "I didn't know that and it sure does have a negative effect on the customer". It is more likely they find a nonconformance to obscure interpretations of the standard or an anomoly that has little or no effect on a customer.

#3 - If you need an outside auditor to convince management to improve a truly deficient area, you have more problems than certification. If your management is truly behind your QMS, you shouldn't need outside help. You and your customer know when your underwear is dirty - wash it.

#4 - The trend is going in the complete opposite direction. With the inception of 16949 we are seeing more and more requests for onsite supplier audits. Supplier manuals are arriving every day with self-assessments attached. More and more customers are driving requirements down the supply base in what seems to be an attempt to micro-manage their suppliers. We have more requests for audits now than we had prior to our QS in 1995.

I think my answer to SSwanson would have to stop at your entry #1. The only reason for certification is because we have to (now if the customers would stick to that and quit giving out contracts to non-certified competitors, maybe that would become a valid reason).

For all you skeptics - I did not say there is no value to a good QMS. I believe ISO gives a good base to any quality system and a good QMS can benefit all companies. I think SSwanson was limiting the question to certification and not the benefit of a good system.

Dave

[mitsu11]

Originally Posted by mitsu11

Hold on there, kids! We all seem to be talking about generic documents for the sake of achieving certification. That is not the point of ISO, and if you are using this theory, you may pass certification, but your company will not consider ISO to be a success. The point of ISO is your company's success.

I feel the need to defend myself. In that previous thread, I was not referring to the ISO certification as the key to a company's success. In fact, I was meant quite the opposite. The point of the ISO standard - its intent - when applied with intelligence - is your company's success. I would guess that those companies who apply ISO-like concepts without any desire for certification are the best applications of the theories and principles, simply because they are not focusing on someone else's interpretation of their own system. (Of course, this is based on zero data and analysis.)

The point of certification in itself, yes, is jumping through that flaming hoop held by a mad, screaming clown. (No offense to auditors. I like clowns.) Unfortunately, that is what drives most companies: fear of losing money rather than a genuine strive for improvement.

Originally Posted by mitsu11

The point of the ISO standard - its intent - when applied with intelligence - is your company's success.

I guess this is where I disagree.

[RCBeyette]

Originally Posted by SSwanson

I guess this is where I disagree.

In the good spirit of the Cove, could you share with us why you disagree?