Records that never were a document...? Shipping Labels and Computer 'Screens'?

[Ingeniero1]

A procedure, an instruction, and a blank form are example of documents.
The Master Document List inlcudes all of them. - OK -

A completed form can become a record if it is kept. These could be kept 'electronically', or printed and kept as hardcopy.
CARs, PAR,s RGA,s etc. are examples of these 'completed forms', and they are listed in the Master Records list. - OK -

A completed form, such as a shipping label, does not become a record (although the information itself may be a record.)
Such non-records are not listed anywhere (duh!) - OK -

Some 'records' start as such; i.e., they never were documents. For example, a schedule that is generated daily for production becomes a record, but it really never was a document (other than in the computer-programming sense).

Same is true for the 'screen' that is used to accept a request-for-quote, process it, and then turn it into a customer order when all the requirements are met.

The 'blank screens' that are displayed to gather this information do not have to be listed in the Master Document list - correct? (I sure hope so.)

HOWEVER, do the resulting records from these screens need to be listed in the Master Record List?

Examples of these would be the 'completed screens' for customer orders, for shipments, for purchase orders, etc.

Thanks

Alex

[Al Rosen]

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

A procedure, an instruction, and a blank form are example of documents.
The Master Document List inlcudes all of them. - OK -

A completed form can become a record if it is kept. These could be kept 'electronically', or printed and kept as hardcopy.
CARs, PAR,s RGA,s etc. are examples of these 'completed forms', and they are listed in the Master Records list. - OK -

A completed form, such as a shipping label, does not become a record (although the information itself may be a record.)
Such non-records are not listed anywhere (duh!) - OK -

Some 'records' start as such; i.e., they never were documents. For example, a schedule that is generated daily for production becomes a record, but it really never was a document (other than in the computer-programming sense).

Same is true for the 'screen' that is used to accept a request-for-quote, process it, and then turn it into a customer order when all the requirements are met.

The 'blank screens' that are displayed to gather this information do not have to be listed in the Master Document list - correct? (I sure hope so.)

HOWEVER, do the resulting records from these screens need to be listed in the Master Record List?

Examples of these would be the 'completed screens' for customer orders, for shipments, for purchase orders, etc.

Thanks

Alex

The records are kept in the computer database. The input screens may or may not be controlled documents or records. It depends. Hypothetically, an input screen could be changed and it might affect the data collected for the record. My point is that you can not generalize.

[Wes Bucey]

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

A procedure, an instruction, and a blank form are example of documents.
The Master Document List inlcudes all of them. - OK -

A completed form can become a record if it is kept. These could be kept 'electronically', or printed and kept as hardcopy.
CARs, PAR,s RGA,s etc. are examples of these 'completed forms', and they are listed in the Master Records list. - OK -

A completed form, such as a shipping label, does not become a record (although the information itself may be a record.)
Such non-records are not listed anywhere (duh!) - OK -

Some 'records' start as such; i.e., they never were documents. For example, a schedule that is generated daily for production becomes a record, but it really never was a document (other than in the computer-programming sense).

Same is true for the 'screen' that is used to accept a request-for-quote, process it, and then turn it into a customer order when all the requirements are met.

The 'blank screens' that are displayed to gather this information do not have to be listed in the Master Document list - correct? (I sure hope so.)

HOWEVER, do the resulting records from these screens need to be listed in the Master Record List?

Examples of these would be the 'completed screens' for customer orders, for shipments, for purchase orders, etc.

Thanks

Alex

Alex, it seems to me you are on the right path, but misidentifying the difference between a "record" and a form of copy of the record.

Try this out:
You have a shipping RECORD (all of the information about a specific shipment - addressee, billee, shipping company [trucker, UPS, FEdEx, etc.], product identity [name, lot #, etc.], quantity, price, quality documents [certs, tests, inspections, etc.], names of inspectors, packagers, etc.)

As part of the creation of a RECORD, you make casual copies of part of the RECORD (an address label, a packing slip, a shipping ticket for the carrier, an invoice) - these are NOT RECORDS; they are only copies of the RECORD.

In a similar manner, the computer screens which temporarily hold the data from the record are not records, themselves; they are temporary copies of part of the record. The RECORD is the data, not the form of the data. (In a computer, you see arabic numbers on the screen, but the computer actually stores the number in binary or hexadecimal form. Similarly with letters of the alphabet which make up words on the screen - they are stored differently in the computer.)

Does this make any sense to you? The master document list is an ever changing report (snapshot) of the documents and records. As soon as it is updated, the previous one is obsolete. Therefore, it is not really a record, only a report of the current inventory of records. Many companies do not treat the MDL as a document at all and therefore it does not need a formal revision level, although the form on which it is printed may have a document number and revision level.

I stopped in a butcher shop today and took a number from the dispenser and watched the counter up on the wall for when my number was called so I could step up to the counter and place my order.

Think of that counter on the wall as the MDL. It was merely keeping a tally of the records (the numbers) as they became current and then obsolete. Sometimes, one of the butchers would call a number and then omit the step of updating the counter. Another butcher would call the number on the counter. Someone would say "The number was already called." The butcher would update the counter and call the next number - just like updating an MDL when a document or record changes.

[Ingeniero1]

Wes,
"The RECORD is the data, not the form of the data. (In a computer, you see arabic numbers on the screen, but the computer actually stores the number in binary or hexadecimal form. Similarly with letters of the alphabet which make up words on the screen - they are stored differently in the computer.)"

Yes, I understand that (especially the part in parentheses since I started learning computer programming when all we had was machine and assembly languages, and I knew the machine codes and mneumonics for several processors, and the ASCII code by heart...)

Therefore, do I have to, and if so, how do I list these records that are stored in the computer? These include a LOT more data than would be 'obtained' by a traditional record and that would be entered through a keyboard, such as customer orders, processeses completed, shipping, etc.?

You see, I have a flow chart for production to which I added a 'bunch' of TSR 'buttons' that signify everytime a part or a product is scanned: TSR = Tag Scan & Record. Each time this is done, the part (or product) number, its location, and completed stage is recorded. From this data, we can tell what is where and how at anytime.

Alex

[Al Rosen]

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

Wes,
"The RECORD is the data, not the form of the data. (In a computer, you see arabic numbers on the screen, but the computer actually stores the number in binary or hexadecimal form. Similarly with letters of the alphabet which make up words on the screen - they are stored differently in the computer.)"

Yes, I understand that (especially the part in parentheses since I started learning computer programming when all we had was machine and assembly languages, and I knew the machine codes and mneumonics for several processors, and the ASCII code by heart...)

Therefore, do I have to, and if so, how do I list these records that are stored in the computer? These include a LOT more data than would be 'obtained' by a traditional record and that would be entered through a keyboard, such as customer orders, processeses completed, shipping, etc.?

You see, I have a flow chart for production to which I added a 'bunch' of TSR 'buttons' that signify everytime a part or a product is scanned: TSR = Tag Scan & Record. Each time this is done, the part (or product) number, its location, and completed stage is recorded. From this data, we can tell what is where and how at anytime.

Alex

Simply state something to the effect that the records are maintained in the "XYZ" database and are available to be retrieved through various reports or you could develop a records matrix or list that identifies each type of record, where the records are maintained, who is responsible for maintaining them and for how long they are maintained.

[Wes Bucey]

Originally Posted by Al Rosen

Simply state something to the effect that the records are maintained in the "XYZ" database and are available to be retrieved through various reports or you could develop a records matrix or list that identifies each type of record, where the records are maintained, who is responsible for maintaining them and for how long they are maintained.

This works for me! The point is, once you have the record in ANY form, any "lists" are simply redundant reports of the material contained in the file.

Here's another analogy:

1. Back in the days of paper files, each record was stored in one place (like a relational database.)
2. Multiple records were combined into a file.
3. People need a way to retrieve a record.
4. Cross-indexes were created to simplify the retrieval.
5. The cross-indexes ("indices" for Rob Nix) were updated as frequently as each new record was added to a file.
6. There were multiple cross-indexes, one for each category of record.
7. Typical cross-index categories were customer; P.O. number; lot number; shipment date; product name or I.D. number; etc.
8. The cross-indexes were merely filing and retrieval aids, NOT the record.
9. An MDL is like a cross-index - merely a filing aid, NOT the record.

[Tanahy]

Alex,
Let me ask you a simple question, regarding understanding the meaning of Record.. In a form of CAR's or PAR's .... why we call it a form? Personally I think because it identifies what are the kind of information should be written inside, as example, "Nonconformity, or problem description, or suggested date.. or whatever information" , my opinion is, it is a form that contains empty fields that should be filled (WITH CERTAIN INFORMATION),(BY DEFINED PERSON) and so on ....
what is the difference now if this form is a audio tape?"THATS JUST AN EXAMPLE" even if its not practical ofcourse, you turn the tape on, listen to questions, answer them, record your answers, approve with digital voice signature and so on.. what is the difference?
my point is, even if you dont have a form of some things that will be a RECORD somehow, like a screen or empty label or whatever, the type of information to be filled or stored there are defined.. so IT IS A FORM,whatever it looks like and whatever media it contains or even when its not any kind of media YET.

A daily production schedule IS a form, even if you don't have the media of the form or you think if you made it a form it will be an empty paper, but the field are constant for you, as example, Product number or code, start time, equipments, or whatever fields you fill in this schedule. and if its digitally filled by a computer software, there is still a form of thsi schedule if you deleted all the information inside the schedule and printed an EMPTY SCHEDULE.

I hope I didnt talk much out of scope, but but dont worry much about it, if you got a record that you think it has no form, and deleted the information from it, like numbers or names, you will have EMPTY FIELDS which is the form of this record.
Thats my personal opinion I hope it is any help for you, I see that form is not the media, it is the fields identifications tha tdefines the type of information should be filled

Tanahy

[Paul Simpson]

Agree in general with the above. In general terms the "record" bit is the stuff you want to keep. So it is the data that just happens (in the example above) to be displayed at one point on a screen. Similarly in a shipping process you decide what document captures enough of the process to be worth keeping and designate this as "the record". Forms are only records when they contain data. Up to the point when they are completed they are process documentation to let you know (using a pro forma) what data is required for the process to work