Of all that is recorded, what is listed or controlled?

[Ingeniero1]

(I don't know what will get here first: our registration audit, which is in two weeks, or getting myself booted from here for asking so many questions!)

Anyway, we keep many records, as most companies do. Some are clearly records that should be included in our Master Record List with the proper storage location, responsibility, use, retention time, etc. These would include Customer Complaints, Test Results, Operator Training Sessions, Calibration Records, and many others.

Other records are not critical to the QMS and don’t have to be included. These may include Parking Lot Assignment, Telephone Lists, Stationery Supply Usage, and similar. Mind you, these records are kept, but they are not burdened with retention time, responsibility, and similar requirements.

There are records, however, that are not necessarily so clear-cut; at least to my untrained eyes. For example, our sales team attended a seminar on how to better address customer issues that are not product-related. Clearly, this is beneficial to the QMS, and shows commitment to continual training. This was a one-time seminar, the topic agenda was recorded, attendance forms were completed, and everything is safely kept in the sales office files.

Do we have to list these records? Do we have to assign a retention time and all the other ‘stuff’ to the attendance form, the agenda, etc.?

My question is, what guidelines do you use to determine what you include in your Master Record List including retention times, disposal methods, etc.?

Thanks –

Alex

[RCBeyette]

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

(I don't know what will get here first: our registration audit, which is in two weeks, or getting myself booted from here for asking so many questions!)

Hey, we don't boot people out for asking too many questions! How else do we get to show off our vast array of knowledge and experiences???

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

Anyway, we keep many records, as most companies do. Some are clearly records that should be included in our Master Record List with the proper storage location, responsibility, use, retention time, etc. These would include Customer Complaints, Test Results, Operator Training Sessions, Calibration Records, and many others.

Sounds good, so far!

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

There are records, however, that are not necessarily so clear-cut; at least to my untrained eyes. For example, our sales team attended a seminar on how to better address customer issues that are not product-related. Clearly, this is beneficial to the QMS, and shows commitment to continual training. This was a one-time seminar, the topic agenda was recorded, attendance forms were completed, and everything is safely kept in the sales office files.

Hmmm....why did they attend the seminar? To gain knowledge, right? Sounds like training to me. And especially if you are experiencing feelings of doubt over your organization's ability clearly demonstrate that you care and love for your Customer, keeping such records would definately help you strengthen your case if your Auditor decides to be a bit of a...umm...need a polite word here....hardball.

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

Do we have to list these records? Do we have to assign a retention time and all the other ‘stuff’ to the attendance form, the agenda, etc.?

For stuff like this? Personally, I say no you don't have to...but really, can you give us a reason not to keep them? They fall under the label of Training Records/Files and the record information you listed for Operator Training Records should match this. Or, rather than say Operator Training Records, why not say Training Files (which may consist of Operator Training Records, off-site training, skill-based training, etc.)?

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

My question is, what guidelines do you use to determine what you include in your Master Record List including retention times, disposal methods, etc.?

• Does it impact our ability to meet the requirements of ISO 9001:2000?
• Does it impact our ability to ensure the strength of our BMS?
• Does it impact our ability to demonstrate due diligence?
• Does it impact our ability to demonstrate compliance to all requirements (regulatory, Customer, etc.)?
• Do we have a darn good reason not to list it as a record???

[Al Rosen]

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

(I don't know what will get here first: our registration audit, which is in two weeks, or getting myself booted from here for asking so many questions!)

Anyway, we keep many records, as most companies do. Some are clearly records that should be included in our Master Record List with the proper storage location, responsibility, use, retention time, etc. These would include Customer Complaints, Test Results, Operator Training Sessions, Calibration Records, and many others.

Other records are not critical to the QMS and don’t have to be included. These may include Parking Lot Assignment, Telephone Lists, Stationery Supply Usage, and similar. Mind you, these records are kept, but they are not burdened with retention time, responsibility, and similar requirements.

There are records, however, that are not necessarily so clear-cut; at least to my untrained eyes. For example, our sales team attended a seminar on how to better address customer issues that are not product-related. Clearly, this is beneficial to the QMS, and shows commitment to continual training. This was a one-time seminar, the topic agenda was recorded, attendance forms were completed, and everything is safely kept in the sales office files.

Do we have to list these records? Do we have to assign a retention time and all the other ‘stuff’ to the attendance form, the agenda, etc.?

My question is, what guidelines do you use to determine what you include in your Master Record List including retention times, disposal methods, etc.?

Thanks –

Alex

Alex:
Unless you have statutory requirements retention times are completely up to the organization.
As to what you include other than what is required in 4.2.4
a) evidence of conformity to requirements and
b) of the effective operation of the QMS).
is also up to your organization and its needs.

As you noted the records of attendance to the sales seminar would fall under b and you should define retention time for the records as well as who is responsible for maintaing them.

[Wes Bucey]

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

(I don't know what will get here first: our registration audit, which is in two weeks, or getting myself booted from here for asking so many questions!)

Anyway, we keep many records, as most companies do. Some are clearly records that should be included in our Master Record List with the proper storage location, responsibility, use, retention time, etc. These would include Customer Complaints, Test Results, Operator Training Sessions, Calibration Records, and many others.

Other records are not critical to the QMS and don’t have to be included. These may include Parking Lot Assignment, Telephone Lists, Stationery Supply Usage, and similar. Mind you, these records are kept, but they are not burdened with retention time, responsibility, and similar requirements.

There are records, however, that are not necessarily so clear-cut; at least to my untrained eyes. For example, our sales team attended a seminar on how to better address customer issues that are not product-related. Clearly, this is beneficial to the QMS, and shows commitment to continual training. This was a one-time seminar, the topic agenda was recorded, attendance forms were completed, and everything is safely kept in the sales office files.

Do we have to list these records? Do we have to assign a retention time and all the other ‘stuff’ to the attendance form, the agenda, etc.?

My question is, what guidelines do you use to determine what you include in your Master Record List including retention times, disposal methods, etc.?

Thanks –

Alex

I sympathize with dealing with a bewildering quantity of documents - just the sheer bulk can be intimidating.

In the past, I've found my mnemonic acronym of SPACE is always a good crutch to fall back on:
S = Sort (in this case, main sort is QMS and non-QMS; sub-sort under QMS might be [you choose what fits your needs] incoming inspection, process audits and evaluations, outgoing inspection, shipping records [this might include material certs, etc.], customer comment [praise or complaints], training records [where sales personnel seminar might fit], and so on.)

P = Purge (what you need and what you don't - include retention issues here)

A = Assign (a place to keep records - hard copy, electronic, etc.)

C = Containerize (file folders, file cabinets, [in the case of electronic records - virtual file folders and cabinets])

E = Evaluate (Part of continual Improvement is to review and evaluate your systems to see whether they are working or can be improved)

In practice, you (or anyone and everyone involved with handling documents) look at each document as it comes past you and apply SPACE to it. Once the attributes are added to the document (in the case of electronic documents, they are added as "meta tags"), it can be dealt with in an orderly, planned manner. In my early days (before PCs), I had a small pad (even before Post-Its) preprinted with a mini checklist which I ticked off and clipped to the document for a clerk to file when he/she picked up stuff from my out basket.-Wes Bucey

[Ingeniero1]

For stuff like this? Personally, I say no you don't have to...but really, can you give us a reason not to keep them? They fall under the label of Training Records/Files and the record information you listed for Operator Training Records should match this. Or, rather than say Operator Training Records, why not say Training Files (which may consist of Operator Training Records, off-site training, skill-based training, etc.)?

Roxanne,
We do keep those records; they are in the Sales Office files - it's just that they are not listed in the Master Record list and hence are not controlled.

Your and several other comments, however, have shed some light that makes me realize something - let's see if I understand correctly.

Originally, I had wondered if these records, as all other training records, had to be INDIVIDUALLY listed and controlled; that is, whether for each new seminar, training class (though not each day of training, but by topic) or anything along the same lines we would have to make separate entries in the Master Record list.

However, I now believe that they could all be archived together, whether each person’s in their employee’s personal file, or perhaps in a file dedicated to training, where everyone’s training files are kept. Then, I could just make one all-encompassing entry in the Master Record list titled such as “Employee Training”, archived in HRs personnel file, by employee, and to-be-retained for X years’.

If the latter were correct; i.e., one entry and one set of controls for all training records, it would surely make things easier and should serve the purpose – as opposed to individually having to list each instance of any training conducted.

Thanks!

Alex

[Al Rosen]

Originally Posted by Ingeniero1

Roxanne,
We do keep those records; they are in the Sales Office files - it's just that they are not listed in the Master Record list and hence are not controlled.

Your and several other comments, however, have shed some light that makes me realize something - let's see if I understand correctly.

Originally, I had wondered if these records, as all other training records, had to be INDIVIDUALLY listed and controlled; that is, whether for each new seminar, training class (though not each day of training, but by topic) or anything along the same lines we would have to make separate entries in the Master Record list.

However, I now believe that they could all be archived together, whether each person’s in their employee’s personal file, or perhaps in a file dedicated to training, where everyone’s training files are kept. Then, I could just make one all-encompassing entry in the Master Record list titled such as “Employee Training”, archived in HRs personnel file, by employee, and to-be-retained for X years’.

If the latter were correct; i.e., one entry and one set of controls for all training records, it would surely make things easier and should serve the purpose – as opposed to individually having to list each instance of any training conducted.

Thanks!

Alex

Exactly!

[Kevin H]

I liked the method used at my prior employer - they treated your example as training, and all records of an individual's training (especially outside courses) were kept by their supervisor for the period of their employment + 1 year. On my records retention list, I had one entry which was emplyee training records with a retention time of employment + 1 year and a disposal method of destruction. My manager had an identical entry on his list. The organization was fairly large - 2600 employees at that site with a fair sized HR department, who did not keep training records. Safety training and the resulting records were handled separately through an online database. Hope this helps.
Kevin H