Six Sigma vs. Shainin - Content of problems that can be solved by Shainin

[The Taz!]

Originally Posted by alfawei

I dont think Shainin & Sixsigma ,even PDCA can solve all problem in manufacturing area.

These are just tools of solving problems.

The environment is changing quickly !

The method and it's user must change too.

I have to disagree on one issue here and add my worth. . .

While spending a week in a stuffy conference room with Dorian Shanin working on a problem. . . he let us know that the techniques are not only for problem resolution, but improvements in general also. Ways to improve and prove out new designs . . . that's the half-full cup edition of Shanin. . .

Incidently, he lived 10 minutes from me prior to his passing on. . .

[sulkinsf]

Good day everyone,

I first joined this site in '98, but havent participated in some time.

In response to the post....

The Shainin techniques are excellent and the World Class book by Bhote does not properly do it justice. Unfortunately, you probably wont get a lot of qualified people explaining the techniques, because we are required to sign a nondisclosure agreement before attending any class! Sorry dudes.

Having qualified in Six Sigma and Shainin, I will say that the Shainin technique is an EXCELLENT addition to the Six Sigma tools and I do not believe it competes with it (though instructors of both may tell you the other is trash).

Is this topic of current interest to anyone. If so, I would be happy to participate as much as possible (within the lines of my nondisclosure)

Steve.

[Wes Bucey]

How about confirming or denying the points about Shainin which Tim Folkerts and I made above.

(We have both acknowledged our information on Shainin is anecdotal - your information, as much as you can answer within the scope of your nondisclosure, would be helpful.)

I mean, after all, you don't blindfold your fellow workers while you do something from the Shainin toolkit, do you?

[sulkinsf]

The answer is not Six Sigma or Shainin, but Six Sigma AND Shainin.

As quality professionals we want to feel equiped to solve any problems within our scope of work. Some examples:

Downtime
Capacity
Capability
Defects or Events

You may use different tools for each, or you may use combinations. It depends on the situation. My opinion is that Shainin is extremely straightforward for solving defect and event problems. On capacity problems lean is excellent, but may lead you to a defect problem, etc.

The begining Shainin class is about 2 grand and worth every penny. Add it to your belt!

Steve.

[sulkinsf]

Originally Posted by Caydinli

I'll be trained for Shainin Apprentice and then Journeyman?

Caydinli - How did your training go?

[BSpitler]

I am a certified Red X(tm) Journeyman (also under the afore mentioned non-disclosure agreement) and an ASQ Certified Six Sigma Black Belt. I think that they are both great.

What I can say is that Red X strategies and Six Sigma are quite similar and in many ways complementary. Both are effective problem solving strategies and offer great tools to do the job. Often the focus is on the 1% difference rather than the 99% similarity. Both can be used to solve virtually any problem.

One Shainin advantage is simplicity. Many people would love to know how to solve problems, while very few want to be statisticians.

Another advantage with Shainin is efficiency. No time or money is wasted on guesswork. Guesswork is replaced by strategy and discipline.

Yet another advantage with Shainin is creativity. Some of the strategies and approaches can only be described as "brilliant". After the classses you are left with a "I never thought of it that way before" feeling.

The proprietary nature of Shainin adds to the controversy. Most of what is out there about Red X strategies is incomplete, oversimplified or just plain wrong while Six Sigma methods and tools are no secret. i.e., the above description of some the RX tools and their uses is way off. Go to the classes, get the coaching, do the toolbox and project work and it only then will you understand.

The certification scheme focuses on demonstrated skill rather than accumulated knowledge - a pleasant change when the work force is being flooded with "Six Sigma Black Belts" that merely completed some CD ROMs or were blessed by some consultant. Employers know that Red X certification is a mark of excellence.

I encourage ALL quality professionals to learn BOTH. You can never know too many ways to solve problems or have too many tools to do it.

[sulkinsf]

I found a site which explains the shainin technique...

http://www.qsconsult.be/ESTShainin.htm

Also, a technique taught by Shainin (under a different name of course) is explained in the Juran's Quality Control Handbook, Fourth Edition. See the
FAST Diagram, page 13.63. There was no references to the original work in my Shainin materials.

[Jim Wynne]

The FAST diagram is on page 13.65. It's interesting that in the link you provided that the writer accuses Keki Bhote of being "...extermely biased..." in favor of Shainin techniques and "...intellectually dishonest..." but offers no support for either contention, which is extremely irresponsible.