The Elsmar Cove Forum and Site Map The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page

Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 17025 - Calibration, Measurement Gages and Test Laboratories > Measurement Uncertainty (MU)


The Elsmar Cove Forum SideBar!
Monitor the Forum
Monitor New Forum Posts
New Threads Feeds
RSS FeedRSS Feed
Sponsor Link










$ Contributor Forum Access
Courtesy Quick Links

Links that Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in your quest for knowledge:


Howard's International Quality Services

Atul's Symphony Technologies

Dave Scott's Scott Quality Solutions

Praxiom Research Group


NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest Portal

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology

ASQ - American Society for Quality


All the Important Standards and Related Web Sites in the World
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 4.50 average. Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24th November 1999, 01:28 AM
Marc's Avatar
Marc Marc is online now
Your Elsmar Cove Host

Registration Date: Jan 1996
Location: West Chester, Ohio - USA
Age: 59
 
Posts: 15,857
Thanks Given to Others: 1,895
Thanked 1,567 Times in 1,019 Posts
Blog Entries: 4
Karma Power: 605
Karma: 11564
Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Send a message via AIM to Marc Send a message via Skype™ to Marc
Lightbulb Calibration Uncertainty Philosophy - Reality vs. Basic Theory (& Guardbanding)

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:55:08 -0500
From: "James D. Jenkins"
To: Greg Gogates
Subject: RE: Calibration Uncertainty Philosophy

Ron,

To begin with, lets establish some common understanding: Measurement Uncertainty: the uncertainty of the measurement data relative to "true value". In calibration and testing this means the combined uncertainty of the traceable reference equipment including the uncertainty attributed to the applied process, environment etc. This also includes the contibutory traits of the subject device, such as its random error contribution and display precision (as applicable), but does not include the subject units specifications.

Device Uncertainty: typically used to describe the uncertainty of a measurement device, expressed as either a containment value such as a specification or a certified value with applicable uncertainty. To be realistic, both of these types must consider uncertainty growth over time since measurement and have some appropriate containment value. Typically when using a certified value we perform a regression relative to changes in value over time and predict the value for a given time since measurement based on a calculated drift slope. It should be obvious that this process would also add uncertainty derived from the prediction. (such as uncertainty of data and fit of data to best fit straight line. etc.)

Adjustment of the "subject unit" (device being calibrated) will have absolutely NO effect on the measurement uncertainty of the data taken during the calibration (before and after adjustment). But will have a definite effect on improving the "In-tolerance Probability" of the subject units performance relative to its "error containment" (specifications) over time (calibration interval).

Type "A" assessment of measurement standards are based upon certified values over time and I agree, you should request that these devices NOT be adjusted as that might disturb the stability of the drift slope. Although it is rare for the typical user of calibrated equipment to use their equipment in this certified value manner. This is usually reserved for passive or otherwise extremely stable reference standards.

Most customers of calibration and users of measurement equipment desire that their equipment perform nominally within specifications and do not reference the measured value, rather they assume error containment by the specifications relative to displayed values. They do not correct the displayed value by some known bias. Such as in a garage when the mechanic measures the battery voltage to be 13.6VDC, it is assumed that the voltage is 13.6 +/- device accuracy specification. For this application to work reliably, a high in-tolerance probability is desired, hence so is the in-tolerance adjustment desirable as it can increase this in-tolerance probability. When computing measurement uncertainty using devices in which we quote the specifications as error containment, we express this in-tolerance probability as the "Confidence Level" of the specifications adequately containing the error (type B).

And you are correct in recognizing that a laboratories Best Measurement Uncertainties as defined in their "Scope of Accreditation" do not apply directly to all data taken in subsequent measurements of varying subject units. This "Best Measurement Uncertainty" is useful is assessing their abilities in making certain measurements and does NOT mean that all measurements made by this laboratory will have this uncertainty. What you desire is a "Specific Measurement Uncertainty" which is based on the interaction of your specific subject unit with their equipment and the applied measurement process. To be in compliance to ISO Guide 25, a laboratory must be able to provide this specific measurement uncertainty upon request. But be prepared for applicable charges as this process can be time consuming as it includes a characterization of the specific subject unit.

(NOTE: the term "Specific Measurement Uncertainty" is phrased only to give clarification between various applications of Measurement Uncertainty, and is not found as such in ISO Guide 25 or the GUM. We have found 3 different types of analyses being reported by laboratories, Best, Specific, and Generic or Typical. While we realize that the "Specific" is the most accurate and costly, the others can be beneficial and have value when taken in context to their origin and definition. Seeing that all three are currently being reported by labs it is our opinion that when using something other than a "Specific" it should be made clear to the recipient.)

In our classes we cover the various types of analyses, applications of measurement uncertainty and the concepts of the uncertainty growth principle. We teach how to develop the laboratories "Scope" and compute a "Specific Measurement Uncertainty" for their customers, when required. We also cover the application of using an economical "Generic or Typical" measurement uncertainty and when it is advisable to report a "Best Measurement Uncertainty" for identifying the labs limits of measurement accuracy.

Once one realizes the intended application of the measurement uncertainty, i.e. risk assessment, the objective of the analysis and hence the proper type required becomes quite clear.

Sincerely,
James D Jenkins
http://measurementuncertainty.com
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 4th December 1999, 01:12 AM
Jerry Eldred's Avatar
Jerry Eldred Jerry Eldred is offline
Forum Moderator

Registration Date: Dec 1999
Location: Texas
 
Posts: 411
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 118 Times in 70 Posts
Karma Power: 89
Karma: 2042
Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Jerry Eldred is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
I fully agree with everything in the post about measurement uncertainty. However, there are numerous applications where adjustment to as close to nominal (minimize error/bias) is NOT desired or appropriate.
1. Quartz oscillators- By adjusting to nominal, you cut in half (in some circumstances), the probability that the instrument will remain in-tolerance for a calibration interval. Oscillators all have aging rates and thus, will normally have a predictable uni-directional drift.If you set to nominal, that oscillator will drift from nominal toward the upper or lower tolerance limit. It is more desirable to adjust to a calculated point in an opposite direction from the nominal as the drift direction, and by the calculated amount that will best assure the oscillator will hit nominal at the halfway point of the calibration interval, as well as remain in-tolerance throughout the interval.

2. Measurement tools in an SPC manufacturing environment used to test quantitative, critical product parameters. The exception in this case MIGHT be in an instance where the accuracy/stability of the measurement tool is so greatly in excess of the control limit spread that it would not significantly impact the data history of the product. Even in that instance, I would not recommend doing that.

In other instances, I believe it depends on the measurement philosophy of the particular calibration program, and the amount of drift from nominal. There are many calibration programs that have an adjust/don't adjust threshhold (for example, 70% of tolerance). It may be more desirable in cases of small drift to get some longer term plots/data of drift. If the drift is bi-directional instability, adjusting may not accomplish anything (in some cases even further destabilize the unit). And in cases where it is a relatively small percentage of tolerance, there may be value in not adjusting for purposes of establishing historical data.

So I believe the decision to adjust is not always clear cut.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #3  
Old 14th April 2004, 10:21 PM
Marc's Avatar
Marc Marc is online now
Your Elsmar Cove Host

Registration Date: Jan 1996
Location: West Chester, Ohio - USA
Age: 59
 
Posts: 15,857
Thanks Given to Others: 1,895
Thanked 1,567 Times in 1,019 Posts
Blog Entries: 4
Karma Power: 605
Karma: 11564
Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.Marc is appreciated, and has over 1700 Karma points.
Send a message via AIM to Marc Send a message via Skype™ to Marc
Default

Any other examples of where the 'normal' calibration and uncertainty don't stictly apply?
__________________
A Search is a terrible thing to waste!
One Test is Worth 1000 Expert Opinions - The plural of anecdote is not data.
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20th April 2004, 11:44 PM
Govind's Avatar
Govind Govind is offline
Super Moderator

Registration Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fremont, California
 
Posts: 546
Thanks Given to Others: 13
Thanked 36 Times in 35 Posts
Karma Power: 50
Govind has disabled his/her Karma.
Default

James,
Thanks for the detailed information on Measurement Uncertainty. Can you explain about "Guardbanding procedure". Since Measurement Uncertainty is one of the component of the Guardbanding, I find this posting relevant here.

There is some mention about Guardbanding in Agilent Metrology Forum. But in telecom devices, critical characteristics have to be guardbanded against measurement error, product aging,variations due to environmental changes, etc.

Combining these values by RSS method and applying k=2 takes away a huge chunck of the tolerance resulting in low yield. Iam worried if we are too conservative and increasing the alpha risk.

Please let me know if any authentic source is available with detailed methodology and formula.
Govind.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 22nd April 2004, 08:37 PM
Ryan Wilde's Avatar
Ryan Wilde Ryan Wilde is offline
Inactive Registered Visitor

Registration Date: Feb 2001
Location: Mineola, NY, USA
Age: 42
 
Posts: 187
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Karma Power: 41
Karma: 146
Ryan Wilde is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.Ryan Wilde is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
Let Me Help You guardbanding

I've seen no less than 4 methods of guardbanding in practice. David Deaver of Fluke wrote the white paper in the link below that actually lists 6 methods. Each has pros and cons, but basically, you are merely trying to control risk. Pick your poison, figure which method works best for you, document that it is the method your company will employ, and use it.
Guardbanding
Ryan
Attached Files: 1. Scan for viruses before using, 2. Please report any 'bad' files by Reporting the post it is in, 3. Use at your Own Risk.
File Type: pdf Guardbanding with Confidence.pdf (82.0 KB, 103 views)

Last edited by Marc; 30th September 2006 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Hyper Linked with title "Guard Banding" for easy search
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22nd April 2004, 10:54 PM
Govind's Avatar
Govind Govind is offline
Super Moderator

Registration Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fremont, California
 
Posts: 546
Thanks Given to Others: 13
Thanked 36 Times in 35 Posts
Karma Power: 50
Govind has disabled his/her Karma.
Thank You!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Wilde

I've seen no less than 4 methods of guardbanding in practice. David Deaver of Fluke wrote the white paper in the link below that actually lists 6 methods. Each has pros and cons, but basically, you are merely trying to control risk. Pick your poison, figure which method works best for you, document that it is the method your company will employ, and use it.

http://www.fluke.com/Download/Calibrators/ddncsl94.pdf

Ryan
In the past I have searched the web a lot on this subject.For some reason, the page you mentioned did not come in my Google search!I guess the key words were different.

Thanks Ryan for providing the information. I found the following site in my previous search, if this is of any use to your work:

http://www.isgmax.com/acr_screens/ar..._worksheet.htm
http://www.isgmax.com/products_l.htm

has some freeware and good white papers on Measurement Uncertainty, Guardbanding,etc. I was reviewing this material for my potential project.
Now I will extend my review to the one you gave also.

Regards,
Govind.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 23rd April 2004, 07:29 PM
Ryan Wilde's Avatar
Ryan Wilde Ryan Wilde is offline
Inactive Registered Visitor

Registration Date: Feb 2001
Location: Mineola, NY, USA
Age: 42
 
Posts: 187
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Karma Power: 41
Karma: 146
Ryan Wilde is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.Ryan Wilde is appreciated, and has over 100 Karma points.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc

Any other examples of where the 'normal' calibration and uncertainty don't stictly apply?
Try uncertainty on a communications analyzer. It's output has to meet a mask, and has no true "calibrated value", only that it fits in the mask of what the waveform should look like. Then you loop the known good signal back into the receiver input of the analyzer, and it must read correctly. It is pass/fail, with no quantitative value. The uncertainty I guess would be 2% of "maybe".

In other words, there are no uncertainties assignable to non-quantitative values, such as pass/fail (as in present/not present). Do not get this confused with go/nogo attribute gauges, in which both ends of a quantitative value are checked.

Another example of non-normal calibration is DC Voltage References. If you have them, and opt to set the 10 VDC back to nominal, you have probably just thrown out years of drift and stability data. If I were to readjust my references to nominal, my DC voltage uncertainty would leap from the present 0.5 ppm to 7 ppm with the turn of a trimmer. That, and I'd lose my job.

There's lots of exceptions like this, but it is basically common sense that dictates.

Ryan
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27th April 2004, 11:05 AM
Graeme's Avatar
Graeme Graeme is offline
$ Contributor

Registration Date: Sep 2000
Location: Lilburn, GA, USA
Age: 60
 
Posts: 401
Thanks Given to Others: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Karma Power: 63
Karma: 894
Graeme is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Graeme is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Graeme is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Graeme is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Graeme is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Graeme is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.Graeme is appreciated, and has over 700 Karma points.
Send a message via AIM to Graeme Send a message via MSN to Graeme Send a message via Yahoo to Graeme
Default Intrinsic standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc

Any other examples of where the 'normal' calibration and uncertainty don't stictly apply?
Some intrinsic standards ... such as ones used in thermometry.
  • Ice point standard: when made and used according to the proper procedure (ASTM E563-02, for example) this has a defined value (273.15 K) and uncertainty.
  • Fixed point standards used in thermometry: triple points of oxygen, water and several other elements; freezing points of silver, tin and several other elements; and the melting point of gallium. ITS-90 defines the values for these points, and the characterisitcs of the standard platinum thermometer probe used for interpolating between them. Measurement uncertainty at a skilled standards lab can be 0.01 K or less. Additional uncertainty in calibration measurements is due to the thermometer probe and measuring system being calibrated.
Note that the thermometry fixed points and other intrinsic standards have "assigned" values. They are not calibrated per se, but are checked and maintained by a system of interlaboratory comparisons. ("Other" intrinsic standards include things like caesium beam frequency standard, Josephson junction array, quantum Hall effect apparatus, stabilized He-Ne laser and so on.)
__________________
Graeme C. Payne
ASQ Sr. Member; CQE; CCT

"Does it matter if the measurement result is wrong?
If it does, then calibrate the instrument.
If it doesn't matter, they why are you making the measurement?"
(P. G. Stein, 2000)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Forum > ISO (International Organization for Standardization) Standards > ISO 17025 - Calibration, Measurement Gages and Test Laboratories > Measurement Uncertainty (MU)

Bookmarks


Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors and 1 Unregistered Guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Clarification on Basic Principle of Uncertainty (Type A & B) neoth Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 6 5th October 2009 04:54 AM
Expanded Uncertainty vs. Accuracy Requirement (including concept of guardbanding) w6553 Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 4 4th September 2009 04:54 AM
Calibration/GR&R Uncertainty cpine Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 1 10th September 2005 04:30 AM
Uncertainty: When (& when not) to put in Calibration certificate sepo29 Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 3 25th October 2004 01:34 AM
Reasonable calibration? 50 foot measuring tape and other basic M&TE Icy Mountain ISO 17025 - Calibration, Measurement Gages and Test Laboratories 25 7th November 2003 10:53 AM



The time now is 09:20 PM. All times are GMT -4.
The time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



   

All Y'All Come Back Now, Y' Hear?

Made With A Mac! FreeBSD OS Powered by Apache!
Using php4 Forums provided and maintained by Marc Smith Database by MySQL

FAIR USE and CORRECTNESS NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe herein constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. In addition, I do not guarantee the correctness of the content. The risk of using content from the Elsmar Cove web site and forums remains with the user/visitor.

Responsibility Statement: Each person is responsible for anything they post in the Elsmar Cove forum. Neither I, Marc Timothy Smith, nor any of the forum Moderators, are responsible for the content of posts people make. Liability for post content resides with the poster as does interpretation and/or acceptance and/or use of advice by the reader.

Complaints: If you have a complaint with a post in a forum discussion thread, including Content in general, fighting, flaming, copyright infringement, defamation and/or 'slander', please use the 'Report This Post Report This Post Button button which appears at the top of every post in every thread.

Site courtesy of:
Marc Timothy Smith - Cayman Business Systems, 8466 Lesourdsville-West Chester Road, West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929 - USA
(513) 341-6272

To contact me, click the Google Voice link below, enter Your Name and Your Phone Number and Google will ring your phone and connect you for free!

The Elsmar Cove Web Site is *CopyFree*
no new posts