posted 04 December 2000 08:11 AM               

Remember if you don't involve everyone in formulating the procedures etc they won't own them and therefore won't use them.

Sounds like you have a tough job in front of you. Good luck.

posted 04 December 2000 06:06 PM               

I've failed during previous attempts to obtain real hard data of the gains made by certification.

I just started to implement a QMS in an organisation that has offices throughout Australia and South East Asia, and I'm trying to capture this information this time around!
I'll let you know the outcome in about 15 months!

posted 05 December 2000 07:16 AM               

I have helped put many QMS's in place in the last 20 years. Many were systems outside of ISO and they were "sufficient" to use a word. Whether I was going to attain certification or simply structure my QMS to comply with ISO, I would choose ISO as a good solid structure to work with. It is configured to promote continuous improvement in all areas, something I felt was lacking in the old Mil-I and Mil-Q systems.

As for "control", does your boss understand the concept of process control as we understand it today?

You wrote "He reckons that all the factory workers need is instructions by the machines in case of emergencys etc. It«s a waste of time to tell them anything else since it hasä nothing to do with themä."

It has EVERYTHING to do with them, they are ones who are doing the work. Instructions are part of controlling process, not just as a contingency for emergencies.

When you have control of your processes, you can recognize ways to improve them and reduce your operating costs accordingly. To me ISO serves as an efficient "guide" into that state of being.

Regarding costs, all I can offer is evidence in the spirit of improvements that came about after implementing ISO/QS. Those were all at the process level and we did recognize a cumulative cost benefit exceeding $250K last year. Not bad for our third year of registration. We are a metal-stamping company with about 70 people.

I hope this helps, even if a little bit.

posted 06 December 2000 11:37 AM               

Your existing QMS is based on his belief/value system. Unfortunately, he feels compelled only to react to negative events (the contingency plans mentioned in an earlier post). Unless his belief/value system changes, introduction of ISO or any other internationally recognized system will not work.

Start with educating your leadership, in as subtle a manner, that change is necessary. Educate, educate, educate!! Only after then, offer that change may take place by the adoption of an ISO (or ISO type) standard to create your QMS. Remember, ISO is a guideline to creating a QMS, and not a QMS.

Please tell us more about your situation.

Regards,

posted 10 February 2001 06:09 PM               

If they are not willing to support it and only wish to have it so the Certificate is on the wall, all intentions by yourself will go to the way-side.

I am talking from experience here too. My first Quality Management role was for a company who manufactured fasteners, particularly for the automotive companies and their first tier suppliers.

I managed to upgrade them from 9002 to QS9000, but after that, I got sick and tired of having to forge 'management review minutes', and so on. I don't know what happened to them and I really don't care.

I am now the Corporate Business System Manager for the company I work for and currently oversee 17 individual Certifications in addition to the local management. I am happy in my current role and at least have some management (not all just yet though) who are right behind a QMS.

Your company is obviously not willing to go the whole way, and you could do better than waste your time with non-supportive managers.

So do yourself a favor...belive me, it is no fun 'managing' a system and forging records just to retain a peice of paper on the wall to keep a few customers happy!

posted 10 February 2001 08:18 PM               

A harsh reality! I have often felt like giving this advice (based purely on the one-sidedness of a post). I felt the same when I originally read this post.

In Philip Crosby's "The Absolutes of Leadership" he offers this about the Destructor: if one works for you, fire them. They aren't worth the effort to try and save and are probably not interested in being saved. If you work for one, get out! You will be doomed to serve under someone who is drilling holes in the boat you are in. You will eventually drown! I recommend this book to anyone so that they may read exactly what the author thinks on this topic.

I would say that any individual in this situation must do a careful analysis of their situation, and ask the advice of someone who is neutral and trustworthy. The decision to leave must be well thought out and, can only come from the person in check.

Regards,

posted 18 April 2001 11:28 AM              

Perhaps if you could just start implementing the system they might see the benefits.

posted 19 April 2001 09:19 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by David Mullins:

I've failed ... to obtain real hard data of the gains made by certification.

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posted 19 April 2001 09:37 AM               

It was actual data easily available on the company network. It worked for us but each company is different.