posted 21 December 1998 05:17 PM            

Glad you found the Cove. You have come to the right spot for answers and debate. Sorry I don't have time tonight to give you much of either, but rather some direction. The other thread in this forum "Is TQM Dead?" has some good information you might want to run through.

Education is a collection of knowldge and understanding. If you've got that, then you're educated!

ISO9002 in a year, should be plenty of time.

posted 21 December 1998 08:18 PM            

South of Merritt Island must be comfortable this time of year. Lived in Central Florida for 12 years, but do not miss it since moving back here.

War stories? Hang around. There are (is?) plenty here.

I believe the implementation of ISO 9000 (or whatever) should be combined with TQM concepts for maximum benefit, but getting those ãpowers that beä to buy in is most difficult indeed. I posted a parable (Whoâs on Trial) somewhere in this forum as a reminder for those types, but I do not recall where. Look around. Remember that ISO 9000 (or whatever) are standards, not models.

ãNot an educated person:ä Knowledge without wisdom is worse than ignorance alone. School learning is not the better of those available, IMHO.

Gentlemen?: I am certain I do not fall into that category, but others may be more qualified than I to judge that.

Ask away your questions. I am sure all participants herein will be glad to answer.

All for now, and I look forward to your input.

posted 22 December 1998 08:58 AM            

I feel the best way to get buy in on any topic is by selling its importance. The stronger the topic, generally better buy in. ISO and especially TQM in the Quality World are strong topics. So why the tough buy in? Probably has a lot to do with not fully understanding the topic. Your job is to sell, sell, sell the topic. When that doesn't work you should sell, sell, sell again. When that doesn't work, it probably won't. Someone in this group mentioned the "magic wand" (I believe it was Marc). If we had it, we would sure share it. I would look through the management group to see who your potential cheerleaders are, the people who will help you spread the news so to speak. These allies can make the sell much easier and serves both as a place to start and a place to build. There will be tough times ahead, not to worry. Always someone in the group to fall back on to get you over a hurdle.

Recommendations on reading materials to marry concepts: TQM with ISO? Wasn't sure what you were looking for exactly. My answer regardless would be the same. Read as much as you can on different topics (from several authors) and visit the Cove often. Many resources out there, most of which speak to specifics, but the blend of material types and different author presentation will give you good perspective. Marrying topics generally comes for me when I read bunches of material and recognize the connections between topics. I never know when it will hit, but the light bulb comes on. I recently purchased a book on System Re-engineering. Basically a blend of Kaizen and ISO. I have read each topic individually, married them on my own as this recent book does. Don't know if I will learn much from this read, but who knows. Also, when you have good command of the topic, people will recognize this which will help you on your finding good "buy in".

Resources: (books from) Deming, Juran, Feigenbaum on Quality Concepts and Management (Several other authors and topics not mentioned), (Internet, Cove) information, Q & A, ISO Standards including the support documents.

Lots to read, read, read. Then lots to do, do, do. Good Luck!!

posted 22 December 1998 01:54 PM            

You need to be careful not to get a half-baked order to move forward. There's nothing less desireable than finding yourself 6 months down the road with no support. Get support of the executive staff. Give them a plan, and if you find that they are not giving up the resources put it back in their hands.

Show them the money. It is my personal opinion that some sections offer obvious benefit with little up front investment. I am thinking about managment review and auditing. The companies I have worked with/for have all been weak here and the benefits are enormous. Hey a good topic for discussion!!!

This goes for auditing too. Auditors are very helpful for pulling together your first project plan, not to mention the fact that they are a very powerful improvement tool.
Get a group of auditors together, get them trained, and do a gap analysis to get you started. You can develop a list of action items and project plan from here. There are some good posts here about using auditors for improvement.

Dont do this for the certificate. Again, this is my opinion, but ISO can hurt as well as help a company. If you dont have a good audit-corrective action system you will have nothing but a real expensive beaurocracy on your hands. Again-my opinion. Get your money's worth and make sure you are happy with the outcome.

When you start a section, check out the cove. We might have some thoughts that will save you some heartache.

Back to the group....

posted 28 December 1998 10:22 AM            

On the subject of reading materials--I've done some hunting and I've come up with some materials that seem to hit what I'm looking for. I'd like to throw out a few titles and authors and get your opinions. I'm not familiar enough with all of the quality guru's out there, and I don't have a lot of time to waste reading something that's not going to help...here we go---

1. "TQM Trilogy" (Using ISO9000 and the Deming and Baldridge (?) award concepts)
Authors are Francis Mahoney, Carl Thor.

I'm hoping this will give me some ideas on marrying concepts (or at least make the light bulb flicker)

2. "Beyond the BS5750-ISO9000 Certificate-A Bureacracy Buster's Guide to Quality Assurance"
Author: Richard Davis

This particular title interests me because, being a small shop, and a "job shop", I do not want to create a system that will tie our hands completely. One of the things that I need to do is allow us as much flexibility as possible. My target is to allow product to flow through the system as quickly as possible while maintaining strict quality standards. Changes and problems occur frequently due to the nature of our work, and I don't want situations where product is held up unnecessarily.

3. Full Circle Corrective Action
Author: Thomas Cappels

I have repeatedly heard and read about the importance of a robust corrective action system. Ours tends to address the problem without guaranteeing a permanent solution (or at least a road to one)most of the time. I don't think we have a bad system, but I'm going to have my hands full getting full cooperation, especially inter-deparmental CAR's. Maybe this title will offer some insight.

Some authors I'd like to know if any of the group has any opinions on:

Philip Crosby (I know, he's a (the?) guru, but will his concepts work in my shop).

Greg Hutchins
Miles Weaver
Robert Craig

I look forward to hearing everyone's input. I'll be doing more research, so expect more questions.

I have already written our manual. It's been approved to an ISO9000 equivalent(?) system, specifically Boeing's D1-9000A, so the qroundwork is laid. We were audited and approved by Boeing in November of '97. It just needs a little fine tuning, and, like I said originally, I'm not real thrilled with the type of system that it turned out to be. There seems to be a lot of effort put into doing things (documentation, especially) that actually contributes little, if any, to the actual quality of the part produced. I once spent a week at a customer's facility across the country just amending documentation shipped with product to make their QA people happy. The interesting thing is, their people here, as well as government reps, bought off the documentation before here. Needless to say, after a week "dotting I's and crossing T's" I left with a bad taste in my mouth, as we did nothing that affected the quality of the part. This is the type of thing I really want to stay away from, as it only adds cost to the product without improving it.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough--back to you guys....

posted 28 December 1998 12:42 PM            

Can't say anything about the books or authors you listed. Sorry.

Philip Crosby: I particularly like his ideas on Leadership but mixed on Quality Concepts and Management. As far as if he is "the" guru, for some yes, for me no (Zero Defect concept is a difficult sell throughout the organization, at least in my experience). When time permits, you should read on the authors you do not select in your present time crunch. Broadens knowledge and understanding. May even change your mind.

For me it is Deming as far as getting the concepts of TQM and Quality in general. Fiegenbaum does a nice job of laying out interrelationships between functions within and organization. The same may be said of the "TQM Trilogy" by the description you gave. This book especially peeks my curiosity since it uses to highly recognized Quality Awards were the focus is less on perfect paperwork and on real improvement to systems, product, and customer satisfaction! For me, that's what it's all about!

posted 31 December 1998 09:35 AM            

I also have not read the authors you mentioned. Sorry. But, I am intrigued by the "TQM Trilogy" title mentioned. Perhaps I will check it out.

Kevin's observations regarding Crosby are on target. I also have difficulty accepting some of his concepts. His Zero Defects and conformance to requirements are especially troublesome to me. But, that is another story. As far 'gurus' are concerned, Kevin makes a good sell for Deming, to which I have no argument. I would only add that to use Deming as your guidepost, use what Deming said, not what people have said he said.

Your observation about 'dotting the i's' and 'crossing the t's' I liked. It reminds me of the old 'MIL-I-" environment I was working in prior to my current position. That is part of the reason I like the flexibility of the ISO-9000 system. It allows me to tailor my system to my facility and the standard. Using this flexibility, I am able to design a system that is not top-heavy and use the quality management practices that actually improve upon product/process quality.

It sounds to me that the 'fine tuning' to Boeing's D1-9000A is not within your comfort zone. As Kevin and Steven pointed out, you probably need cheerleaders other than yourself on your side. If you are 'fine tuning' without adding value to your Quality Management System, question it! In the 'MIL-I-" system I was in before, every subcontractor rep and GSA rep wanted to add their "little piece" to the pie. If I had followed all the suggestions received, that system would have been so bureaucratic, it would have served no purpose. I had to fight tooth and nail to maintain compliance to the standard and my Quality Management System. But, I had the support of my top management. For every place they said "it sure would be nice" or "we would like to see" I responded, "Where does it say I HAVE to do this?" Once I convinced them that I had met the intent of the standard, they would normally back off. Sometimes not, to which I eventually had to cave. Perhaps my observations are off base. If so, let me know.

posted 31 December 1998 08:07 PM            

quote:

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"Where does it say I HAVE to do this?" Once I convinced them that I had met the intent of the standard, they would normally back off.

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I preach and I preach and I preach this.