Posts: 6
From:Singapore
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 13 December 1999 10:59 PM            

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Is the definition of finding :

A FINDING IS DEFINED AS A CONCLUSION OF IMPORTANCE BASED ON OBSERVATIONS OR A FINDING IS DEFINED AS A CONCLUSION OF IMPORTANCE BASED ON EVIDENCE.

ANY INPUTS????

Eugene

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Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 13 December 1999 11:12 PM               

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Let's say I'm an auditor and I watch as an employee does something. There is an undocumented but trained system which was explained to me earlier. The employee I am observing is not following the trained system. I really don't have 'hard' evidence (no paper to copy or such) but I can issue a finding based upon my observation.

The above is observed - but - the term OBSERVATION in the ISO9000 world used to mean the same as is now called things like OPPORTUNITIES FOR IMPROVEMENT.

An OBSERVATION was not a 'finding' in the 'old' ISO world, but that has nothing to do with observing a noncompliance.

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Posts: 637
From:South Central Massachusetts
Registered:

posted 14 December 1999 09:50 AM               

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evidence can be an interview or 'seeing' a nonconformance happen....corraborated by your guide, or further interviews with another trained employee.... As long as there is verification (did I see what I thought I saw) And was what I was told corraborated by a minimum of 2 sources as true? Sources can be interviews, or paper or evidence from another auditor..etc.

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Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 14 December 1999 01:55 PM               

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I understand a FINDING to be a non-conformance base upon OBJECTIVE evidence.

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Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 14 December 1999 02:00 PM               

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How do you define objective evidence?

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Posts: 228
From:Barstow, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 1999

posted 14 December 1999 03:14 PM               

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OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE is that which is defined as verifiable information based upon records, observations or statements of fact.

The evidence can be quantitative or qualitative and used by an auditor to determine whether or not the audit criteria has been met.

The evidence can be based upon interviews, document review, observation, and the existing results of measurments and testing.

The evidence must however be within the agreed to scope of the audit criteria.

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Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
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posted 14 December 1999 03:25 PM               

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I think we're all in agreement here. The only confusion was over the word observation which is an issue of the context in which it is used.

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Posts: 49
From:St. Joseph MI, USA
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 14 December 1999 05:22 PM               

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Hafta snicker over this. Obviously somebody wants to argue a "finding", eh?

Kinda like telling the judge that the cop only "saw" you run the stop sign. Guess who's gonna win?

Rather than bitch and moan and fight a finding, fix it with the same energy and watch the world spin more easily.

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Posts: 6
From:Singapore
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 14 December 1999 07:38 PM            

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I agreed with Marc that we are in the same song book except that it is a bit confusing on the two words "observations" and evidence".
To conclude , a finding is an audit conclusion that idnetifies a condition having a significant adverse effect on the quality of the activity under review and findings are negative,violation of a requirement,promise made and was not kept.

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Posts: 637
From:South Central Massachusetts
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posted 15 December 1999 09:06 AM               

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I much prefer common sense to semantics...life is much easier that way.

We all get hung up on words.....and numbers (as in # of N/C)....the point is, if its broke fix it. If the people involved are representing the process incorrectly....educate them...if it adds no value say so...if the procedure can be clarified for everyones benefit...just do it for God sakes. Don't be so defensive.

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Posts: 49
From:St. Joseph MI, USA
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 22 December 1999 04:44 PM               

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Thank you, Barb. This kind of conversation has always confused me. I fix the "observations" as well as the "findings". If I don't, they darn sure will be "findings" later on...

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Posts: 4119
From:West Chester, OH, USA
Registered:

posted 22 December 1999 08:33 PM               

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Another resource is: Elsmar.com/mvsm.html

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