When do we do APQP, PPAP etc for both OEM and aftermarket

[just67horns]

We are working on our TS certification, and about 4 months from our Audit. I want to be sure I represent this correctly to our management, and get our docs to reflect it properly. Our operation will have one or two customers that require TS, and mostly others who are aftermarket. Top managment has requested we apply the same system across all our operations. My question is when a non OEM requests a sample part, do we have to do a PPAP? How do we write our QMS so we do PPAP (and other related processes like APQP) properly only for customers that require PPAP. I don't want to go through the extra work when our customer just wants an off the shelf part, or slightly custom. I want to get the verbage correct in our procedures so we do these tasks when required, but don't go the extra mile for our aftermarket customers that do not care. Does anyone know of existing threads that cover these types of issues?

 

[Helmut Jilling]

We are working on our TS certification, and about 4 months from our Audit. I want to be sure I represent this correctly to our management, and get our docs to reflect it properly. Our operation will have one or two customers that require TS, and mostly others who are aftermarket. Top managment has requested we apply the same system across all our operations. My question is when a non OEM requests a sample part, do we have to do a PPAP? How do we write our QMS so we do PPAP (and other related processes like APQP) properly only for customers that require PPAP. I don't want to go through the extra work when our customer just wants an off the shelf part, or slightly custom. I want to get the verbage correct in our procedures so we do these tasks when required, but don't go the extra mile for our aftermarket customers that do not care. Does anyone know of existing threads that cover these types of issues?

If you ordered a consumer computer from Dell, and they sent you a 2 inch binder entitled PPAP validation documents, you would look at it and wonder what that was for.

PPAP validation is a particular methodology favored by the Big 3. Other customers may have their own desired documents. There is no requirement to make a PPAP, or anything else, for a customer who does not require it.

That being said, there may be some docuemnts and records common to PPAPs that you find have value to you (for example inspection data, FMEAs, or whatever). You may want to make those for your own benefit.

As to how do you document the requirements in your procedures, just say what you do. For automotive customers, when required we do blah, blah, etc..... For Aftermarket, we do it this way instead...

Write whatever guidance and direction you would find to be useful. That should be compliant with TS as well.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Top managment has requested we apply the same system across all our operations. My question is when a non OEM requests a sample part, do we have to do a PPAP?

hjilling offered some good advice, but if your top management wants the "same system" applied to everyone, what is meant by "same system"? You don't even have to use PPAP for your automotive customers if they don't specifically require it (although most do), because PPAP is not a direct 16949 requirement.

 

[Howard Atkins]

We are working on our TS certification, and about 4 months from our Audit. I want to be sure I represent this correctly to our management, and get our docs to reflect it properly. Our operation will have one or two customers that require TS, and mostly others who are aftermarket. Top managment has requested we apply the same system across all our operations. My question is when a non OEM requests a sample part, do we have to do a PPAP? How do we write our QMS so we do PPAP (and other related processes like APQP) properly only for customers that require PPAP. I don't want to go through the extra work when our customer just wants an off the shelf part, or slightly custom. I want to get the verbage correct in our procedures so we do these tasks when required, but don't go the extra mile for our aftermarket customers that do not care. Does anyone know of existing threads that cover these types of issues?

I your management that they want one system. The PPAP question is in my view the wrong question.
Do you intend the rest of your plant to be ISO 9001. If so first you need to ensure that 7.1, Planning of product realization. It is not reasonable that you will apply 7.1 to the OEM and not to the aftermarket.
This clause is in fact the clause that requires a method such as APQP.
This is a requirement of ISO9001 and not TS and is vital for all companies as if not used then the cost of run in ,zero series etc could be large.
As said in many places the PPAP is just the documentation of the planning and implementation system.

If you ordered a consumer computer from Dell, and they sent you a 2 inch binder entitled PPAP validation documents, you would look at it and wonder what that was for.

You do in fact receive PPAP level 1 from Dell and most other OEM's , you receive a warrant, in their format which is similar to that of the PSW.
The TS requirement is only applicable to automotive products that are not after market but that does not mean that no after market companies do not request PPAP, I have seen requirements for this which are customer requirements as as such are part of the agreement between the companies.
The requirement of the standard is

7.3.6.3 Product approval process
The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer.
NOTE Product approval should be subsequent to the verification of the manufacturing process.
This product and manufacturing process approval procedure shall also be applied to suppliers.

This refers to the documentation submitted as the standard requires for TS parts FMEA, MSA, CP etc and thus if the paper is submitted or not is irrelevant.
You must decide whether you want to use FMEA across the board or utilize its advantages for a limited number of parts. Will you have a control plan for only TS parts?
There is no problem from the procedure point of view you include a comment that this only apply to TS parts. The TS auditor cannot audit non TS parts and typically the ISO 9001 audit will be simultaneously and use the automotive part.

 

[Tybee - 2011]

APQP Rewuired

Is a APQP process required on purchased fro resale items or just manufactured items

 

[just67horns]

The customer requires the APQP. Are you design responsible?

 

[quality.shesha]

My View

Is a APQP process required on purchased fro resale items or just manufactured items

here we go,

if you purchase a item from your vendor and if you supply it to any of the 3 big OEM's only PSW which is part of the PPAP is required by these 3.
but you need to maintain(lemme say you need to get it from vendor) all the docs(like FMEA,CP,PFC,.......) which you get from your vendor.
the vendor needs to submit you all the docs and you need to maintain it.
for the 3big people it is called as TIER-2 submission and they prefer only PSW.
it's your headache to maintain all the docs and should be in a position to show the 3big whenever they ask you.

i believe this answers your question......

shesha

 

[quality.shesha]

The customer requires the APQP. Are you design responsible?

i didn't get your point.

but i feel the customer doesn't require APQP.

but design responsible comes only into picture when validation part is done by whom??

shesha

 

[Howard Atkins]

There are 2 separate questions as I see it.
1. What are the requirements of the standard and your customers
2. What is best for you.

The standard 7.3.6.3 says you must use a product and manufacturing process approval process. This does not mean that you must use the PPAP handbook with your suppliers but you must decide how you want to approve them. This does not mean that you cannot use PPAP but it is not the default unless you have a CSR which says you must use it with your suppliers.

2. APQP is a process whereby you plan the development and realization of your part and process. This must be done in some form or another by all companies TS, ISO or nothing! If you call the process APQP then you use the framework as described in the handbook. If you call it Project Management you use a different framework which is good for you.
PPAP is the documentation of your planning, verification and validation of your product/ process and as such enables you to use this evidence which is supplied by your supplier to judge whether his part/process is good for you.

 

[Tybee - 2011]

Thank you all

We manufacture very little, however we outsource a ton of stuff. The APQP process as I know deals with more of a manufactured process for new products. We have that in-place, however I was wondering about the purchase for resale items. I agree if my customer base requires it we shall do. My question is will it be a requirement that a auditor (TS) will look for on those purchased parts? We currently do not require PPAP submissions form our suppliers, however they do go through a liminted quilifaction process to allow product to be purchased suchs as testing, visual and dimensional.