Odd First Article Question - Part made by a sister company

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bullets r us

Many apologies if I am posting in the incorrect area as this question is in regards to a First Article inspection, not a PPAP.

The company I work for recently received a PO for a job that we are not capable of producing. Our sister company, however, is capable of producing the part and will be running for us. Our customer is aware of this, and due to a movement to consolidate suppliers, would like to keep the PO with us since we are currently running a few other parts for this company. The customer requires a fairly straightforward FAI (five piece complete layout, material certs, ballooned drawing) with the addition of a Control Plan. In my many years of performing PPAP's and FAI's, I have never encountered this situation, and was wondering how to handle. I am thinking that maybe I would just have our sister company submit the FAI parts and documentation to me for review, then I submit to the customer. Some individuals where I work have suggested that I transpose their data to our internal forms and send to the customer. I do not think that this is a good idea since our location did not run the parts, layout the parts, or write the Control Plan - the parts will be shipped out of our location by the way. Does anyone have any words of wisdom, or has anyone dealt with a similar situation?

Thanks a million!
 

Ron Rompen

Trusted Information Resource
Re: Odd First Article Question

I agree with you completely; to transpose your sister companies measurements onto your documentation would (IMHO) constitute fraud UNLESS you stated very clearly that measurements were not taken by your company.

Much easier to review and verify their results, and then submit that to your customer. Since they are aware that the sister company is doing the actual work, and that you are acting only as a middleman, there shouldn't be any problem.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Leader
Admin
Re: Odd First Article Question

Do you need to comply with a QMS standard such as ISO 9001?

This could add some requirements that your customer may not specify, such as controls on work subcontracted outside your facility.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Re: Odd First Article Question

I don't see specific fraud - fraud would require keeping buyer in the dark about the sister company involvement. In its purest form, this is outsourcing no different from buying through a broker or general contractor. The key element to :ca: is traceability (chain of custody) and transparency. As my own contract machining business grew, I often outsourced work to former competitors as I describe in this post (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=105566&postcount=20) written back in 13th April 2005.
Sometimes, just sometimes, the plan works! Our plan was for our customers to think of us as partners with whom they could share confidential information. It worked because we never betrayed the confidence. Many times, we'd tell them they were already getting a good deal. If the quality was a minor problem, we'd offer to consult with their current supplier to help him overcome the obstacle to good quality. Our pitch to the "competitor" would be that we were partners with them in satisfying the customer. A happy, satisfied customer was easier for everyone to deal with. We sometimes used these "competitors" to outsource some of our overflow once we got their quality systems up to snuff. Our point was, "If you have similar machines, you should be able to do similar work. Let us help you tackle the quality and service issues."
 

David-D

Involved In Discussions
Re: Odd First Article Question

I'd concur with the others and strongly recommend against transcribing other's results as your own. Instead I'd suggest one or more approaches: put a cover sheet/certification infront of their results providing your assessment of their results (if conforming, etc); make your own additional measurements and provide them instead or in addition; or just pass them along as is. In this case there doesn't appear to be any need for you to try to insulate your suppliers from your customer but even in that case I'd encourage obliterating their contact info rather than rewriting it. Once you start transcribing it you open up many many issues: transcription errors, lack of ability to repeat previous measurements apparently made by you with your gages, etc as well as strange traceability and awkward appearances.

David
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
Re: Odd First Article Question

Many apologies if I am posting in the incorrect area as this question is in regards to a First Article inspection, not a PPAP.

The company I work for recently received a PO for a job that we are not capable of producing. Our sister company, however, is capable of producing the part and will be running for us. Our customer is aware of this, and due to a movement to consolidate suppliers, would like to keep the PO with us since we are currently running a few other parts for this company. The customer requires a fairly straightforward FAI (five piece complete layout, material certs, ballooned drawing) with the addition of a Control Plan. In my many years of performing PPAP's and FAI's, I have never encountered this situation, and was wondering how to handle. I am thinking that maybe I would just have our sister company submit the FAI parts and documentation to me for review, then I submit to the customer. Some individuals where I work have suggested that I transpose their data to our internal forms and send to the customer. I do not think that this is a good idea since our location did not run the parts, layout the parts, or write the Control Plan - the parts will be shipped out of our location by the way. Does anyone have any words of wisdom, or has anyone dealt with a similar situation?

Thanks a million!

There are two options: Submit the data as is from your sister company, or transpose it onto your own forms, making it clear on the forms who actually did the inspection. For the latter case, The form for dimensional reports in the AIAG PPAP manual (see the attachment) has a field at the top for "Inspection Facility," for this type of thing. You can do something similar.
 

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cavrdave

I worked for a company with many other locations and they would submit the PPAP to my location and if I approved the PPAP I would sign it off "accepted" and attach another PSW and send this off to the customer where they would review the PPAP and either sign it off "accepted" or reject it for various reasons. This way the customer would see we were being transparent in doing business with them.
 
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PaulJSmith

Since you state that your customer is already aware of the situation with your sister company, and they sent you a PO with that knowledge, there's no reason to transcribe anything. Submit the FAI as it is, along with whatever else your customer requires.

Perhaps, someone from your contracts department (or whoever deals with that in your organization) could even pick up the phone and call the customer to get feedback from them ...?
 
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