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Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
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Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
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Some Related Topic Tags
corrective action (ca), customer complaints and customer found nonconformance, defects and defectives, nonconforming material product or service, responsibilities
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  Post Number #9  
Old 9th August 2017, 02:23 PM
Coury Ferguson's Avatar
Coury Ferguson

 
 
Total Posts: 4,521
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Golfman25 View Post

Frankly, that's a copout. I know it's in the standard but it is baloney. If I have no control over design, and I have no control over selection, then how can I possibly have control over quality. The supplier can tell me to pound sand and I have zero recourse. And any end using customer who uses this method to bind suppliers just plain sucks and is not worth doing business with. Things go much better when the customer is helpful.
At that point, you find an alternate supplier and get your customer to remove that from the drawing.

I think that it depends on the product you produce. If you are a Government Contractor, many of the drawings have a source control or suggested source listed on them. It really is a matter of customers.

As for the comment of "...bind suppliers just plain sucks and is not worth doing business with" try making that statement to your Organization's Management. There are a lot of suppliers that rely on that specific business from a customer that may have that required. Unless you are a Multi-million/billion dollar company that wouldn't work. The binding of suppliers is sometimes driven by long term contracts with that Customer. I don't like "sole source" callouts, but when the organization is trying to meet the P&L you live by it.

So, to make a statement like that might be a little misdirected, in my opinion.

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  Post Number #10  
Old 9th August 2017, 02:57 PM
howste's Avatar
howste

 
 
Total Posts: 4,885
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Golfman25 View Post

Frankly, that's a copout. I know it's in the standard but it is baloney. If I have no control over design, and I have no control over selection, then how can I possibly have control over quality. The supplier can tell me to pound sand and I have zero recourse. And any end using customer who uses this method to bind suppliers just plain sucks and is not worth doing business with. Things go much better when the customer is helpful.
You and I may not like it (I don't), but it's still the reality even if ISO 9001 said nothing about it. The customer specified that before the agreement (contract or PO or whatever) was accepted. The ideal time to negotiate is before the agreement is made. After it's agreed you can ask to renegotiate or ask the customer to help. If they're reasonable and you have a good working relationship then they may do it.
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  Post Number #11  
Old 9th August 2017, 03:50 PM
Cari Spears's Avatar
Cari Spears

 
 
Total Posts: 1,909
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Coury Ferguson View Post

I would accept the CA from the customer, and generate a Supplier Corrective Action to the sub-assembly supplier, and copy the Customer (keep them in the loop). Respond to their CA with the SCAR and the responsible supplier's response.
Me too - this is what I've done in the past.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Coury Ferguson View Post

At that point, you find an alternate supplier and get your customer to remove that from the drawing.
Keeping your customer in the loop would possibly help make this happen, but the customer still may not allow a change. If the supplier does not respond to the SCAR, or if problems continue to happen with the customer dictated supplier/product even if they do respond, then you could build a case for increased pricing due to increased receiving inspection time that was not originally planned for.
Thank You to Cari Spears for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #12  
Old 9th August 2017, 04:03 PM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 831
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Coury Ferguson View Post

At that point, you find an alternate supplier and get your customer to remove that from the drawing.

I think that it depends on the product you produce. If you are a Government Contractor, many of the drawings have a source control or suggested source listed on them. It really is a matter of customers.

As for the comment of "...bind suppliers just plain sucks and is not worth doing business with" try making that statement to your Organization's Management. There are a lot of suppliers that rely on that specific business from a customer that may have that required. Unless you are a Multi-million/billion dollar company that wouldn't work. The binding of suppliers is sometimes driven by long term contracts with that Customer. I don't like "sole source" callouts, but when the organization is trying to meet the P&L you live by it.

So, to make a statement like that might be a little misdirected, in my opinion.
I am organizational management I would not do business with customers who pick sub-suppliers and then hit me up with the sub-supplier's defects. It's a **** poor way of doing business and is useful for nobody. If the sub-supplier that you chose is giving me issues, then you should be there to help resolve those issues with that sub-supplier.
  Post Number #13  
Old 10th August 2017, 04:37 PM
Fender1's Avatar
Fender1

 
 
Total Posts: 31
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

I want to thank all for the coaching. Iím thankful of this forum and experience shared.

I reached out to the NC producer. They discussed the NC with their assembly staff and check their inventory of subject components; NC not found. I was told that an upstream process tests the component prior to it being sent to assembly; their assembly (and downstream processes,) doesnít test it. They also stated that their assembly may have been over-torquing the component at install. They were torqueing the component per its position, not to an effective torque. As of this update, a torque spec hasnít been defined, however a lower torque is now provided without NC. I plan to communicate this info to our customer, and that our incoming inspection and product test processes will continue our watch for subject NC.

When discussing your coaching responses with my coworker, the question was asked; if my customer somehow finds out about a NC component that I received from my supplier and I correct it (i.e. I eliminated the NC,) prior to shipping the component to my customer, is it understandable for my customer to ask me for RC/CAR, when they never received the NC?

Again, thanks for the coaching.
  Post Number #14  
Old 10th August 2017, 05:10 PM
howste's Avatar
howste

 
 
Total Posts: 4,885
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Fender1 View Post

...if my customer somehow finds out about a NC component that I received from my supplier and I correct it (i.e. I eliminated the NC,) prior to shipping the component to my customer, is it understandable for my customer to ask me for RC/CAR, when they never received the NC?
I would say no. They expected good product and they got good product. It would be the same if your company made nonconforming product that you found and corrected. If your system took care of it the customer should see that your system effectively prevented them from getting the bad product, and shouldn't ask for corrective action.
Thanks to howste for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #15  
Old 10th August 2017, 05:46 PM
Coury Ferguson's Avatar
Coury Ferguson

 
 
Total Posts: 4,521
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by howste View Post

I would say no. They expected good product and they got good product. It would be the same if your company made nonconforming product that you found and corrected. If your system took care of it the customer should see that your system effectively prevented them from getting the bad product, and shouldn't ask for corrective action.
I agree with you Steve.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Fender1 View Post

I want to thank all for the coaching. Iím thankful of this forum and experience shared.

I reached out to the NC producer. They discussed the NC with their assembly staff and check their inventory of subject components; NC not found. I was told that an upstream process tests the component prior to it being sent to assembly; their assembly (and downstream processes,) doesnít test it. They also stated that their assembly may have been over-torquing the component at install. They were torqueing the component per its position, not to an effective torque. As of this update, a torque spec hasnít been defined, however a lower torque is now provided without NC. I plan to communicate this info to our customer, and that our incoming inspection and product test processes will continue our watch for subject NC.

When discussing your coaching responses with my coworker, the question was asked; if my customer somehow finds out about a NC component that I received from my supplier and I correct it (i.e. I eliminated the NC,) prior to shipping the component to my customer, is it understandable for my customer to ask me for RC/CAR, when they never received the NC?

Again, thanks for the coaching.
Explain it this way to your co-workers: It is better to identify the existence of nonconforming material and rework to bring back into specification/drawing requirements then shipping that nonconforming material to your customer.

Take the necessary CA on the Supplier, and do what we are doing with our Customer/Supplier relationship and build up data (rework costs and such) and back charge the Supplier as the extreme case.

Just keep your Customer in the loop. You don't want the customer to hear this from a 2nd or 3rd party.

Just my suggestion.
Thanks to Coury Ferguson for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #16  
Old 10th August 2017, 09:17 PM
Big Jim

 
 
Total Posts: 2,770
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by howste View Post

I would say no. They expected good product and they got good product. It would be the same if your company made nonconforming product that you found and corrected. If your system took care of it the customer should see that your system effectively prevented them from getting the bad product, and shouldn't ask for corrective action.
Howste,

I wonder if your aerospace experience is coloring your response. AS9100D 8.4.1 includes:

"The organization shall be responsible for the conformity of all externally provided processes, products, and services, including from sources defined by the customer."

Note 2 in 8.4.2 (which isn't auditable but certainly adds flavor to the concept) says:

"Customer verification activities performed at any level of the supply chain does not absolve the organization of its responsibility to provide acceptable processes, products, and services and to comply with all requirements."

These are sometimes referred to as the "anti complaint" clauses, stressing the responsibility of controlling suppliers.

This isn't in ISO 9001:2015 (or any prior editions). Applying this level of responsibility of controlling customer supplied sources doesn't appear to be what TC 176 had in mind.

For the OP, now that you know that your customer is trying to abdicate their responsibility, be wary of them in the future and make sure that if you deal with that customer again and they want to specify the supplier, make sure you clarify what you are getting into again and bid accordingly including a no bid if it is a supplier you can't work with or at least suggest or ask for an alternative supplier.
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