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Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
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Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility
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corrective action (ca), customer complaints and customer found nonconformance, defects and defectives, nonconforming material product or service, responsibilities
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  Post Number #17  
Old 14th August 2017, 09:03 AM
howste's Avatar
howste

 
 
Total Posts: 4,885
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Big Jim View Post

Howste,

I wonder if your aerospace experience is coloring your response. AS9100D 8.4.1 includes:

"The organization shall be responsible for the conformity of all externally provided processes, products, and services, including from sources defined by the customer."

Note 2 in 8.4.2 (which isn't auditable but certainly adds flavor to the concept) says:

"Customer verification activities performed at any level of the supply chain does not absolve the organization of its responsibility to provide acceptable processes, products, and services and to comply with all requirements."

These are sometimes referred to as the "anti complaint" clauses, stressing the responsibility of controlling suppliers.

This isn't in ISO 9001:2015 (or any prior editions). Applying this level of responsibility of controlling customer supplied sources doesn't appear to be what TC 176 had in mind.

For the OP, now that you know that your customer is trying to abdicate their responsibility, be wary of them in the future and make sure that if you deal with that customer again and they want to specify the supplier, make sure you clarify what you are getting into again and bid accordingly including a no bid if it is a supplier you can't work with or at least suggest or ask for an alternative supplier.
My experience in a variety of industries colors all of my responses. I stand by what I said for the reasons I stated. The customer got what they asked for = the QMS worked and they shouldn't ask for corrective action.

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  Post Number #18  
Old 14th August 2017, 10:03 AM
Big Jim

 
 
Total Posts: 2,770
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by howste View Post

My experience in a variety of industries colors all of my responses. I stand by what I said for the reasons I stated. The customer got what they asked for = the QMS worked and they shouldn't ask for corrective action.
My suggestion is that it is improper to judge by a different standard. Look at the enhancement on the topic from AS9100 as guidance, not as rule of law.

Had ISO 9001 included that part of the Aerospace enhancement, the OP probably would not have found himself caught in this trap.
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  Post Number #19  
Old 14th August 2017, 10:40 AM
howste's Avatar
howste

 
 
Total Posts: 4,885
Re: Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Big Jim View Post

My suggestion is that it is improper to judge by a different standard. Look at the enhancement on the topic from AS9100 as guidance, not as rule of law.

Had ISO 9001 included that part of the Aerospace enhancement, the OP probably would not have found himself caught in this trap.
I didn't reference any AS9100 clauses. The logic stands on its own. But since you continue to press the issue, let's look at the ISO 9001:2015 requirements that clearly require the same things:
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Clause 8.4.1

The organization shall ensure that externally provided processes, products, and services conform to requirements.

The organization shall determine the controls to be applied to externally provided processes, products, and services when:

a. products and services from external providers are intended for incorporation into the organizationís own products and services...
That should be plenty. But there's also this:
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Clause 8.4.2

The organization shall... d. determine the verification, or other activities, necessary to ensure that the externally provided processes, products, and services meet requirements.
And this:
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Clause 8.5.1

The organization shall implement production and service provision under controlled conditions.

Controlled conditions shall include, as applicable... c. the implementation of monitoring and measurement activities at appropriate stages to verify that criteria for control of processes or outputs, and acceptance criteria for products and services, have been met...
And this:
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Clause 8.6

The organization shall implement planned arrangements, at appropriate stages, to verify that the product and service requirements have been met....

The organization shall retain documented information on the release of products and services. The documented information shall include:

a. evidence of conformity with the acceptance criteria...
And this:
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Clause 8.7.1

The organization shall ensure that outputs that do not conform to their requirements are identified and controlled to prevent their unintended use or delivery.
This isn't like imposing counterfeit requirements on an ISO 9001 system. It's a recurring theme in ISO 9001 because giving the customer good product is a basic principle that the standard is based upon. If you look at the first of the seven quality management principles (Customer Focus) in ISO 9000:2015 it states:
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by ISO 9000:2015 Clause 2.3.1.1

The primary focus of quality management is to meet customer requirements...
I still stand by what I said for the reasons I stated.
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