Controlling Drawings / Prints - When and What's too much 'control'?

[Michael T]

Okay guys & gals... I need your input here.

I'm revamping our Engineering department to finally conform to the Design & Development aspect of ISO 9001:2000. We are currently ISO 9002:1994 and haven't had Design Control instituted, however, that is changing with our transition to 9001. The Engineering dept. has run pretty much foot-loose and fancy-free and is now being reined in.

Here is what I inherited... we have some controlled drawings but only those that are associated with purchased material specification. I want to get all Engineering drawings controlled - yet I am running into significant resistance from the engineers as well as machinists. They are unhappy because if they want to change the position of the bolt holes on a brace (for example), they don't feel they should have to run that through a controlled document change process. They think that the dept. manager should be able to "sign off" on that type of change without having a formal review.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might draw the line? Anyone care to share their thoughts on their own controlled drawing process/procedures?

Thanks!!!!!

 

[M Greenaway]

Michael

Even under ISO9002 you should have controlled all documentation, including product drawings.

Your question probably relates more to engineering change control rather than pure document control.

Any design changes should go through a review process where the changes are considered by suitably trained and authorised personnel prior to implementation.

If the machinists have this skill then OK, but document who authorised the change somewhere, and have the back up information available to prove the person was suitably qualified to take such a decision.

If the changes are insignificant, like you suggest such things as bolt hole positions, then I would suggest that the design department modify the drawing so that bolt holes are not mandated, but a note added to the drawing 'to be drilled on assembly to suit', or words to that effect. In other words loosen up the design drawing so that these minor changes can be done without any formal ECN.

 

[Michael T]

Re: Re: Controlled Drawing - What's too much?

Jim Wade said:


Hi Michael

What is the opinion of the department manager and his or her boss?

rgds Jim

Hiya Jim...

Hmmmm.... dept manager is a capable engineer who has his nose buried very deeply in his boss's.... ooops, never mind...

Seriously - the Engineering Mgr is an engineer. He likes to build things - he likes to play with prints & drawings - he hates paperwork. His boss is the company President. He's also an engineer... (read what you want into that)

Would I feel comfortable allowing the Eng. Mgr. to make minor changes to prints where the changes don't effect product quality? Yes.

Cheers!

 

[Michael T]

Jim, Jim, Jim... logic? Nay - the vile wretch, logic, shall never pass through management's minds...

Sorry... I just had to do that...

Anyway - I'm pretty sure that management will authorize low level (non product related) changes to machine drawings through our Request For Action (RFA) program with departmental manager approval. We already have procedures set for low level controlled document changes by department leaders - so this isn't a stretch.

With the latest push to transition to 9001:2000, I've been able to get some changes pushed through that were beneficial AND made sense. Sometimes it surprises them...


Cheers!!

 

[db]

Document control and change

They are unhappy because if they want to change the position of the bolt holes on a brace (for example), they don't feel they should have to run that through a controlled document change process. They think that the dept. manager should be able to "sign off" on that type of change without having a formal review. They are unhappy because if they want to change the position of the bolt holes on a brace (for example), they don't feel they should have to run that through a controlled document change process. They think that the dept. manager should be able to "sign off" on that type of change without having a formal review. They are unhappy because if they want to change the position of the bolt holes on a brace (for example), they don't feel they should have to run that through a controlled document change process. They think that the dept. manager should be able to "sign off" on that type of change without having a formal review.

Just a thought here Michael, where does it say they can't make changes, review and approve changes at their level.

1) Are they doing this now?
2) If so, is it working?
3) If so, why not build this into the rules?

 

[M Greenaway]

db - my sentiments exactly !

 

[gpainter]

The Engineering Department is usually the one that gives you the most trouble when it comes to standards. Its just their nature!!! I seen an article that said Professional Engineer, What an oxymoron.

 

[tracey]

OOCH! I work in the engineering department, I don't think we are that bad. As far as engineering changes, when bolts are moved or any changes are made the prints are updated and given a new rev # and signed by the engineering manager.

 

[Sam]

Michael T said,
"I'm revamping our Engineering department to finally conform to the Design & Development aspect of ISO 9001:2000."

Michael,
IMO the first problem I see is the word "I'm" in your problem statement.
Are you an engineer assigned to that department, if not, then you cannot revamp it. The only responsibility you have is to offer guidance on the requirements of the standard.
The only way it will work is to allow engineering to establish there own process, and when it comes time for an audit (or something worse), let the chips fall where they may.

I am reminded of this quote,
"Anyone who does the work for the caterpillar (enables) robs it of the strength it would have gained from the struggle."

 

[Michael T]

Re: Document control and change

db said:



Just a thought here Michael, where does it say they can't make changes, review and approve changes at their level.

1) Are they doing this now?
2) If so, is it working?
3) If so, why not build this into the rules?

Hi Dave....

Okay - to answer your questions: It doesn't say they cannot make, review & approve changes anywhere... that is the problem. The Engineering Dept. - for the most part - has been "hands off" by direction of the CEO & Pres. With the transition to 2000, there is no longer any choice...

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) That was my original intention - I just wanted to find out if I was way off base with engineering drawings and the level of control necessary. I knew they need to be controlled, disemination documented, have changes documented, be reviewed and approved, but because there are different "levels" and types of drawings - I wanted some feedback on how much control I need to exert over the system.

Sam said:

IMO the first problem I see is the word "I'm" in your problem statement.
Are you an engineer assigned to that department, if not, then you cannot revamp it. The only responsibility you have is to offer guidance on the requirements of the standard.
The only way it will work is to allow engineering to establish there own process, and when it comes time for an audit (or something worse), let the chips fall where they may.

Sam... you are quite right - and my mistake... I'm not "writing" their procedures - I'm providing the guidance in helping them put together the processes required for transition to 2000. This is where the question originally arose -- they were wondering if they needed to run ALL engineering drawings changes (not just the ones related to product & raw materials) through our formal Quality Management Team for review & approval. Since there is technically no established distinction between a drawing made for a product and a drawing made for a component to one of the machines - I couldn't give them a good response.

Thanks!!!

Cheers!