EMR performing audits of EMS

[drgnrider]

Going through an audit and Assessor is citing 4.5.5 "Selection of Auditors and conduct of audits shall ensure objectivity and the impartiality of the audit process." and stating that the EMR cannot audit the EMS.

Disagreement is that the EMR is not the EHS Manager nor in the EHS department, and is not auditing the Internal Audit process.

Are we along the right track or is the assessor correct?

 

[AndyN]

Going through an audit and Assessor is citing 4.5.5 "Selection of Auditors and conduct of audits shall ensure objectivity and the impartiality of the audit process." and stating that the EMR cannot audit the EMS.

Disagreement is that the EMR is not the EHS Manager nor in the EHS department, and is not auditing the Internal Audit process.

Are we along the right track or is the assessor correct?

Where's the evidence that the audits are not impartial or lack objectivity? Your assessor is grasping at straws...

 

[isoalchemist]

I don't agree with auditors often, but technically the EMR does have "responsibility" for the EHS system and could be seen as a conflict, even if they don't have a direct responsibility. Like you I would argue it, more for the fun than knowing I'm right.

 

[drgnrider]

Where's the evidence that the audits are not impartial or lack objectivity? Your assessor is grasping at straws...

Andy,
Our thoughts exactly, but the assessor called his manager and he has agreed with his assessor.

I don't agree with auditors often, but technically the EMR does have "responsibility" for the EHS system and could be seen as a conflict, even if they don't have a direct responsibility. Like you I would argue it, more for the fun than knowing I'm right.

isoalchemist,
This is his argument as the EMR has "overall responsibility for the EMS" and this is what constitutes the conflict. We disagree on the grounds that the EMR only controls and coordinates the system, but does not own the individual processes/documents that are being audited; other than the IA process. Thus not being the individual process owner, where is the conflict?

 

[AndyN]

Time to unload your CB, in that case! If their management don't know what makes an objective finding, you've lost...

 

[insect warfare]

Going through an audit and Assessor is citing 4.5.5 "Selection of Auditors and conduct of audits shall ensure objectivity and the impartiality of the audit process." and stating that the EMR cannot audit the EMS.

Disagreement is that the EMR is not the EHS Manager nor in the EHS department, and is not auditing the Internal Audit process.

Are we along the right track or is the assessor correct?

My question is, why did they stop there? If your EMR auditor's competence was sufficient enough to 1) meet the objectives and scope of the internal audits he was carrying out, and to 2) provide confidence that those audit results are reliable, then I would have asked the assessor to elaborate on that aspect of it, not to focus on the degree of responsibility that the EMR may or may not have, and to just stop there.

I carry out internal audits regularly as our EMR, and my audit results definitely carry a degree of reliability (meaning that my audit reports identify areas needing improvement as well as recognize areas of excellence, and that those same reports trigger subsequent corrective actions as required). Someone telling me that I'm too close to the EMS to be effective as an auditor without alluding to the quality of my outputs is not doing a thorough assessment IMO. I would request a second opinion, at the very least....

isoalchemist,
This is his argument as the EMR has "overall responsibility for the EMS" and this is what constitutes the conflict. We disagree on the grounds that the EMR only controls and coordinates the system, but does not own the individual processes/documents that are being audited; other than the IA process. Thus not being the individual process owner, where is the conflict?

I take the same approach to internal auditing the EMS as I would the QMS - and that is I do not audit my own work records. That usually provides enough separation of responsibility to avoid any conflicts of interest.

Brian

 

[drgnrider]

Time to unload your CB, in that case! If their management don't know what makes an objective finding, you've lost...

:mg: CB is one of the biggies!!!!! :mg:

We have already informed him that if left as an NC, we will challenge the finding.

 

[drgnrider]

My question is, why did they stop there? If your EMR auditor's competence was sufficient enough to 1) meet the objectives and scope of the internal audits he was carrying out, and to 2) provide confidence that those audit results are reliable, then I would have asked the assessor to elaborate on that aspect of it, not to focus on the degree of responsibility that the EMR may or may not have, and to just stop there.

I carry out internal audits regularly as our EMR, and my audit results definitely carry a degree of reliability (meaning that my audit reports identify areas needing improvement as well as recognize areas of excellence, and that those same reports trigger subsequent corrective actions as required). Someone telling me that I'm too close to the EMS to be effective as an auditor without alluding to the quality of my outputs is not doing a thorough assessment IMO. I would request a second opinion, at the very least....

I take the same approach to internal auditing the EMS as I would the QMS - and that is I do not audit my own work records. That usually provides enough separation of responsibility to avoid any conflicts of interest.

Brian

Exactly!!!! I have rather large IA reports with multiple observations and OFI's, meaningful NC's, and probably the most in-depth reports of all my internal auditors. As he was assessing, he returned a sample audit where I was the auditor and requested another.

I am also the QMR and audit that system as well.

 

[Randy]

Unless the EMR is shown to be dishonest, of low ethics and a cheat he can audit all he chooses

 

[AndyN]

:mg: CB is one of the biggies!!!!! :mg:

We have already informed him that if left as an NC, we will challenge the finding.

As with all things in life, size isn't important!