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%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
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%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
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Some Related Topic Tags
gage r&r (repeatability and reproducibility), msa (measurement system analysis), msa manual
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  Post Number #9  
Old 16th October 2017, 02:02 AM
Chn01

 
 
Total Posts: 4
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

Optimal: Have the customer accept in writing, signed.
Near Optimal: Have the customer accept by email...that is "in writing".
maybe passable: document the verbal phone call with time, date and who said it.

From another aspect...if you can't get <10...perhaps you should still be looking at your test method to see how to optimize it.

HTH
the auditor only accept in writing and sigened but in real life you don't get it. I would be very interested if somebody has such signed document from the customer?

Method optimizaiton has been done for many years. Sometimes there are limitation.

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  Post Number #10  
Old 16th October 2017, 08:27 AM
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Ninja

 
 
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Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Gage R&R is part of the full PPAP submission...the full PPAP submission is signed off and approved...thus I have a signed approval...

but not a separate signed document saying "We, the customer, accept a GRR between 10 and 20"

Haven't had any issue so far.
Thank You to Ninja for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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  Post Number #11  
Old 16th October 2017, 09:44 AM
Sebastian's Avatar
Sebastian

 
 
Total Posts: 215
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Discussion has gone in wrong direction from beginning. There is something wrong with measuring method and that's the problem.

Everyone who wants to use signed PSW as evidence that someone working for customer accepted any nonconforming document in PPAP file, soon or later will get nonconformity from auditor. First, it is not game, "Find 10 differences in two pictures" and as long approver does not find our mess, it is OK. Second, approver usually is not an authorised customer representative, who has power to waive requirements stated by procedures, manuals, etc.

That's an auditor's view and reason of many nonconformities issued. Some suppliers are doing in on purpose, some not, but these are auditors who are forced to check whether customer's manuals procedures are followed. PSW approvers are paid to do it first, but they not.

As I said 3d machine is best, but if you know its limitation, you simply do not select it as measuring mean.
  Post Number #12  
Old 16th October 2017, 09:58 AM
Chn01

 
 
Total Posts: 4
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

Gage R&R is part of the full PPAP submission...the full PPAP submission is signed off and approved...thus I have a signed approval...

but not a separate signed document saying "We, the customer, accept a GRR between 10 and 20"

Haven't had any issue so far.
PPAP submission include connecting dimension (in our case) only, hence we do not have approval for all gauges. Auditors require all measurement systems
  Post Number #13  
Old 16th October 2017, 10:07 AM
Chn01

 
 
Total Posts: 4
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sebastian View Post

Discussion has gone in wrong direction from beginning. There is something wrong with measuring method and that's the problem.

Everyone who wants to use signed PSW as evidence that someone working for customer accepted any nonconforming document in PPAP file, soon or later will get nonconformity from auditor. First, it is not game, "Find 10 differences in two pictures" and as long approver does not find our mess, it is OK. Second, approver usually is not an authorised customer representative, who has power to waive requirements stated by procedures, manuals, etc.

That's an auditor's view and reason of many nonconformities issued. Some suppliers are doing in on purpose, some not, but these are auditors who are forced to check whether customer's manuals procedures are followed. PSW approvers are paid to do it first, but they not.

As I said 3d machine is best, but if you know its limitation, you simply do not select it as measuring mean.
The measuring method is definitely not the problem. We even ask different equipment manufacture for device and solution but for some applications there is only 3d. Even using a very accurate one <10% and 0.010 mm tolerance is not possible with self-centering measurement. Mathematically this require the gauge to have R&R ≤ 1 micron! without any environmental influences
Thanks to Chn01 for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #14  
Old 16th October 2017, 12:23 PM
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Miner

 
 
Total Posts: 4,124
Look! Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sebastian View Post

Discussion has gone in wrong direction from beginning. There is something wrong with measuring method and that's the problem.
There is not always something wrong with the measurement system when the GRR is between 10-20%. I have run into the following scenarios many times:
  • You are using the state of the art measurement equipment. Better does not yet exist.
  • Better measurement equipment does exist, but is not economically feasible. Furthermore, the dimension is not a very important dimension, and does not warrant the added expense.

This is why the MSA manual makes that allowance.
  Post Number #15  
Old 16th October 2017, 12:51 PM
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howste

 
 
Total Posts: 5,016
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

When I was regularly submitting PPAPs, in the interest of transparency I would make notes on the PSW indicating any conditions in the data that I thought they should review or that I thought I would need specific approval for. That way if a question ever came up I could show that the customer specifically approved those conditions on the PSW. I believe that this would be acceptable vs. hiding the data in a "big honkin' binder" full of data.
  Post Number #16  
Old 16th October 2017, 02:47 PM
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Bev D

 
 
Total Posts: 3,547
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sebastian View Post

Discussion has gone in wrong direction from beginning. There is something wrong with measuring method and that's the problem.
I would add to Miner's points about why 10%-30% is often OK that the formula for calculating this number is mathematically flawed and more often than not it overstates the measurement error contribution to the overall variation.is

Given that the characteristics that the OP is concerned with are those non-critical characteristics (they are not on the PPAP) this becomes even more important.
Thanks to Bev D for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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