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%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
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%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?
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%GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?


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Some Related Topic Tags
gage r&r (repeatability and reproducibility), msa (measurement system analysis), msa manual
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  Post Number #1  
Old 13th October 2017, 08:13 AM
Chn01

 
 
Total Posts: 4
Question %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Gage R&R study according MSA 4rd Edition < 10% - Thatís nice but often not practicable but ALWAYS required by auditors!

We use CMMs at shop-floor which are very accurate but for some characteristics there is no way to achieve <10%. In this case we accept internal between 10% and 20% but not the auditor.
In this case, the auditors require customer approval. Usually we get from the customer the approval verbal but not signed by a piece of paper.

Does somebody has an idea / solution how to get auditors acceptance without begging customer for signature?

Regards, Christian

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  Post Number #2  
Old 13th October 2017, 08:48 AM
Ninja's Avatar
Ninja

 
 
Total Posts: 823
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Optimal: Have the customer accept in writing, signed.
Near Optimal: Have the customer accept by email...that is "in writing".
maybe passable: document the verbal phone call with time, date and who said it.

From another aspect...if you can't get <10...perhaps you should still be looking at your test method to see how to optimize it.

HTH
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  Post Number #3  
Old 13th October 2017, 09:13 AM
Sebastian's Avatar
Sebastian

 
 
Total Posts: 215
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

I am not a CMM specialist, but for me it looks like unreliable measuring procedure. Improperly stabilized part during measurement, too small base planes, etc. These are basic mistakes and I do not believe persons at your plant made it, but better check it.
It is not question of auditor, it is question of unreliable measuring system, who in most cases should be best one. We have stamped parts and we do not use cmm for measuring positions on a daily basis.
  Post Number #4  
Old 13th October 2017, 09:14 AM
JJ_FDA

 
 
Total Posts: 24
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Bake the approval into the specification documents or contract?
  Post Number #5  
Old 13th October 2017, 09:33 AM
Miner's Avatar
Miner

 
 
Total Posts: 4,124
Look! Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

The MSA manual, 4th edition, page 78, states 10 percent to 30 percent "Should be approved by the customer". There is always a discussion and misunderstanding over the use of should vs. shall. See article.

In your situation, I think documenting a good faith effort to advise the customer and obtain the approval is sufficient.

The manual also states "Decision should be based upon, for example, importance of application measurement, cost of measurement device, cost of rework or repair". This provides another opportunity for you to document the justification for accepting the higher GRR.
Thank You to Miner for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #6  
Old 13th October 2017, 11:09 AM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 977
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Yep, this old problem again.

Your first try should be to look at your ppap submission. The gage r&r should be in there. Since the ppap was approved, therefore the gage r&r was approved. Used to work but these days not so much -- god forbid we expect customers to review our submission prior to approval.

Unfortunately auto auditors these days want detailed acts of congress for approval. Anything less and you'll have problems. So your best bet is to get a written approval from your customer using the audit finding as leverage for a response. Like anything with a hard number, you're stuck between meeting the number and actually using thought and reason. Good luck.
  Post Number #7  
Old 13th October 2017, 11:30 AM
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Proud Liberal

 
 
Total Posts: 145
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Your signed PSW should be good enough.
  Post Number #8  
Old 13th October 2017, 03:11 PM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 977
Re: %GRR <10% not possible. How to get approval by auditor?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Proud Liberal View Post

Your signed PSW should be good enough.
Unfortunately that's not true any longer. We went for years with alleged defects being "approved" by our customers via the signed PSW. Then one day all that stopped. Even an approved PSW doesn't get you out of the "requirement." We are told approvals need to be specific and documented. Your mileage may vary.
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