Responsibility / Authority not Defined / Communicated - Clause 5.5.1 - NCR No: 4

[SilverHawk]

One BVQI auditor issued this NCR No: 4 under clause 5.5.1 as it is read, "During audit, it was found that the responsibility and authority was not been defined and communicated within the organization." FULL STOP!

Can any good and kind soul explain what on earth is this BVQI auditor trying to prove in this issuance of NCR No: 4? Can anyone understand the NCR to identify the root cause and to tackle the coorective action?

This auditor has interviewed the one and the only one employee on her understanding of her job in relation to ISO 9001. She may have freak out or panic by the way the auditor have put it to her. The auditor may not like what he is hearing and he issued the NCR No: 4.

Pls. help me to address the NCR?

 

[Wes Bucey]

One BVQI auditor issued this NCR No: 4 under clause 5.5.1 as it is read, "During audit, it was found that the responsibility and authority was not been defined and communicated within the organization." FULL STOP!

Can any good and kind soul explain what on earth is this BVQI auditor trying to prove in this issuance of NCR No: 4? Can anyone understand the NCR to identify the root cause and to tackle the coorective action?

This auditor has interviewed the one and the only one employee on her understanding of her job in relation to ISO 9001. She may have freak out or panic by the way the auditor have put it to her. The auditor may not like what he is hearing and he issued the NCR No: 4.

Pls. help me to address the NCR?

Bummer!
Were you present for the audit?
Usually an auditor explains the "findings" before leaving the premises. Was this done?

I am having a difficult time understanding your phrasing here:
interviewed the one and the only one employee on her understanding of her job in relation to ISO 9001.
Do you mean

• She is the only employee he talked to during his entire visit?

or

• She is the only employee in a department or location?

In any regard, how does the employee answer the question today? Is she still fuzzy on the facts? If not, help her understand them. If yes, simply answer the nonconformance by saying,
"The only employee auditor interviewed was under considerable internal stress from the visit of such an important personage as the auditor and was unable to articulate her understanding to a stranger. She has been reinterviewed and her understanding of the issue of responsibility and authority is excellent when not under the stress of an interview by a stranger. A random sampling of other employees confirms general employee understanding of responsibility and authority "

Who was the auditor's escort? What is his recollection? Was she uninformed or just unable to articulate the answer to the auditor in a form the auditor expected? In other words, am I making a fair assumption about her stress or was she truly uninformed? What would a random sampling of the same question among all employees show?

In my experience, it is rare to come across a completely stupid or insensitive 3rd party auditor. If he found many other nonconformities on his visit, he may have felt justified in leaping to a conclusion from one random question.

 

[mshell]

Do you have the responsibilities an authorities clearly defined in your documentation (procedures and instructions)?

We cover this requirement by defining responsible parties throughout the QMS documentation and in individual job descriptions.

 

[SilverHawk]

Thanks.

Firstly, the auditor interviewed only one employee to draw the conclusion that the responsibility and authorities was defined as she cannot understand it. However, the escort heard it but was too timid to reason out with the auditor. I can accept Bruecy explanation.

We do have WI and SOP describing the job responsibility and authority but the auditor seems to ignore that. We will to ask what does this NCR means but he does not explain well enough.

We were all exhausted by the end of auidt as it was tense and the auditor sare unprofessional!!!

 

[mshell]

I am sorry to hear that it was a stressful situation.

It sounds like Wes hit the nail on the head and it was more of a fear/miscommunication issue that anything.

 

[DannyK]

In order to establish an NCR, he should have obtained more objective evidence. There is no requirement to document responisbilities and authorities.

In my opinion, an NCR without objective evidence is not an NCR.

If you had a problem with this auditor, you should complain to BVQI and request another auditor for the next audit. You should ask BVQI to clarify the NCR. They may cancel the NCR after hearing your explanation.

Danny

 

[SilverHawk]

Cancel NCR?

We are trying to ask BVQI to explain and clarify the NCR again. I am doubt the NCR will be cancel but I am sure we would like this auditor to be at our place again (if agin) the next time.

 

[Greg B]

Thanks.

Firstly, the auditor interviewed only one employee to draw the conclusion that the responsibility and authorities was defined as she cannot understand it. However, the escort heard it but was too timid to reason out with the auditor. I can accept Bruecy explanation.

We do have WI and SOP describing the job responsibility and authority but the auditor seems to ignore that. We will to ask what does this NCR means but he does not explain well enough.

We were all exhausted by the end of auidt as it was tense and the auditor sare unprofessional!!!

Silverhawk,

This type of BAD auditing annoys me. I have had these types of conclusions bought up by Auditors before and when I discuss the findings with them I ask them to fully explain the issue. If they cannot substantiate their findings then I protest the NCR. If they continue without substanial reason then I take it up with their management and so on. Do not be afraid of the Registrar Company. They are YOUR client and have a responsibility to provide you with quality service. As part of their service they must substantiate their claims and use good auditing practices (asking one person is not good procedures). Do not get me wrong …... If our company warrants a NCR then I accept it. Personally, I am not offended by NCRs as I see them as a valuable tool for Continually Improving our system BUT I will not stand by when registrars or even our internal auditors pick up NCRs for the sake of finding something wrong with the system. Your auditor could have simply made an OBSERVATION that one employee seemed to have difficulty in a certain area. No further action would then be required on their part.

I have, in the past, sacked a registrar and then been certified by another company because I was not happy with the initial service provided.
I feel better now after I have gotten that off my chest.

Greg B

 

[SilverHawk]

NCRssssssss

Thanks GregB. I do accepted the other four (4) NCRs issued by the auditor. No question about it! But these 2 NCRs No: 1 and Nos: 4 are drawing on me. I am still thinking how to address these NCRs.

I have try to call and talk to the auditor but he is now around. We will try to discuss again what they really means. It is always the case, at the closing meeting, we are too tense to ask anything and to accept what was issued to us. By the time, we sit down to ponder over the NCRS we now start to break down think how to identify the root causes and the cause of non-conformity.

At this stage, we realize that we do not understand what the statement on the NCR is about!

We will ponder and discuss over it again....

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

In my opinion, an NCR without objective evidence is not an NCR.

Agreed . I have to say that it would be interesting to watch during the next audit when the auditor in question will have to determine wether proper action has been taken or not. That should be a bit of a problem when the NCR in fact consists of nothing more than... ...an opinion....

/Claes