Supporting Site Quality Manual and References Requirements

[Angie]

I am currently conducting supporting site audit I am being told by the certification site (for the supporting site) that the supporting site does not use their Quality Manual. I do not think this is the case, the supporting site must use the Quality Manual for the site they support, but is this plainly documented anywhere?

I received the same response when I requested the "turtle diagrams" for the processes in which the support site supports, the certification site stated the "support site" would not be mentioned on their "turtle diagrams"? I would think the support site would be listed as "support" but again not sure?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[AndyN]

I am currently conducting supporting site audit I am being told by the certification site (for the supporting site) that the supporting site does not use their Quality Manual. I do not think this is the case, the supporting site must use the Quality Manual for the site they support, but is this plainly documented anywhere?

I received the same response when I requested the "turtle diagrams" for the processes in which the support site supports, the certification site stated the "support site" would not be mentioned on their "turtle diagrams"? I would think the support site would be listed as "support" but again not sure?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Angie:

Tell us more about your audit: Internal? What's the scope? What criteria are you using to audit against? What's the objective of the audit?

Experience tells me that when people post such questions and seek help trying to find where these (your questions) are answered, the planning of the audit wasn't effective. So, to help you, tell us about your audit...

 

[Angie]

Re: Supporting Site

Hello.

We are preparing for new IAFT 16949 audit (internally) The manufacturing site Company A is located in China, and company A remote/supporting site is in US, we support the process of Sales, Delivery, Customer Satisfaction and Warranty.

I am auditor from our office in UK sent to US to conduct Internal Audit prior to our IAFT 3rd party audit next year. To prepare for the Internal Audit I requested a Copy of Company A Quality Manual, so that I could see the process/and interactions of the process concerning remote site in US. The China site stated US site would not use their Quality Manual for audit, that US would need to make their own manual, and processes.

With the training I received for Internal Auditing IAFT 16949, when preparing for audit you look at the Manual and Processes (in the case of this company they choose "turtle diagrams", so I also asked for diagrams on Sales, Delivery, Customer Satisfaction and Warranty so I can see the entire process and how the support site supports the process, again I was told"this is not correct, for remote site audit you should only look at the documentation created by and for the remote site-US. " If you can not look at Manual/Diagrams from China Site, how can you show linkage to US support site?

When there is Support Site (in this case the US site), their role is to support the site receiving the certification (in this case China site), so US must follow the process/guidelines set by China? The US will have their own set of instructions, but those instructions must be in line with China I would think?

Hope this clears up my question a bit... thanks for your help

 

[Sebastian]

There is one important thing missing. Certification scheme of US supporting site and China manufacturing site. Probably US supporting site is certified together with some US manufacturing site. If so, there are two separate management systems and US supporting site is not bound by system established by China manufacturing site. There is rather "commercial" relation between them even both entities are members of same "family".

Scope of your audit is limited to management system of supporting site only. Manufacturing site is an interested party and you should focus on activities performed by supporting site to determine expectations and needs of manufacturing site, how they are addressed in management system of supporting site, implemented and monitored.
This is same relation like manufacturing site and customer, where customer is interested party. You shall not audit according to QM, procedures of China manufacturing site, as long US supporting site is not obliged to treat these documents as CSR and follow them.

I might be wrong, but should'n be. Wait for 3rd party auditors comments, I still have to learn a little bit in this matter.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Supporting Site

Hello.

We are preparing for new IAFT 16949 audit (internally) The manufacturing site Company A is located in China, and company A remote/supporting site is in US, we support the process of Sales, Delivery, Customer Satisfaction and Warranty.

I am auditor from our office in UK sent to US to conduct Internal Audit prior to our IAFT 3rd party audit next year. To prepare for the Internal Audit I requested a Copy of Company A Quality Manual, so that I could see the process/and interactions of the process concerning remote site in US. The China site stated US site would not use their Quality Manual for audit, that US would need to make their own manual, and processes.

With the training I received for Internal Auditing IAFT 16949, when preparing for audit you look at the Manual and Processes (in the case of this company they choose "turtle diagrams", so I also asked for diagrams on Sales, Delivery, Customer Satisfaction and Warranty so I can see the entire process and how the support site supports the process, again I was told"this is not correct, for remote site audit you should only look at the documentation created by and for the remote site-US. " If you can not look at Manual/Diagrams from China Site, how can you show linkage to US support site?

When there is Support Site (in this case the US site), their role is to support the site receiving the certification (in this case China site), so US must follow the process/guidelines set by China? The US will have their own set of instructions, but those instructions must be in line with China I would think?

Hope this clears up my question a bit... thanks for your help

Since you are auditing a Quality Management System, it should be understood that the manual and documentation should be as "common" as needed. Since support sites have processes which feed/respond to the Manufacturing site, it makes zero sense to have one set of documents in the US and another in China. The documentation should, as you correctly suggest, show the hand off from US processes to the China ones.

 

[AndyN]

There is one important thing missing. Certification scheme of US supporting site and China manufacturing site. Probably US supporting site is certified together with some US manufacturing site. If so, there are two separate management systems and US supporting site is not bound by system established by China manufacturing site. There is rather "commercial" relation between them even both entities are members of same "family".

Scope of your audit is limited to management system of supporting site only. Manufacturing site is an interested party and you should focus on activities performed by supporting site to determine expectations and needs of manufacturing site, how they are addressed in management system of supporting site, implemented and monitored.
This is same relation like manufacturing site and customer, where customer is interested party. You shall not audit according to QM, procedures of China manufacturing site, as long US supporting site is not obliged to treat these documents as CSR and follow them.

I might be wrong, but should'n be. Wait for 3rd party auditors comments, I still have to learn a little bit in this matter.

I don't believe this is correct at all. Treating a support site with one QMS and a manufacturing site with another QMS isn't what this is about...

 

[Angie]

No the US site does not have any other certification only support to the China Manufacturing plant. That is why I think they should use the same manual, but could not find where it is requirement of IAFT 16949?

 

[AndyN]

No the US site does not have any other certification only support to the China Manufacturing plant. That is why I think they should use the same manual, but could not find where it is requirement of IAFT 16949?

Sadly you won't. It's - in general terms - considered in section 4 under the context etc. Were you ISO/TS 16949 in the past? Or is this a new certification?

 

[Dave Cx]

Angie
From your description the US site is not an extended manufacturing site (as it does not manufacture) so it would be a remote support location, by that it is remote to the parent site in China. If that is the case I would expect the scope for the China management system to reference the US site as an RSL.

If China system does not reference the US then the US certification is standalone & hence has its own management system - context / policy / processes, etc.

 

[AMIT BALLAL]

[QU.OTE=Angie;612915]No the US site does not have any other certification only support to the China Manufacturing plant. That is why I think they should use the same manual, but could not find where it is requirement of IAFT 16949?[/QUOTE]

Clause 4.3.1 asks to include remote locations in the scope of QMS. And hence all requirements apply accordingly. There has to be minimum a process map showing interaction between this site and remote location and documents showing how the remote location supports the site (clause 4.4.1). As Andy suggested, its better to have a common quality manual, since it is a single QMS.