The Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > > >
Forum Username

Elsmar Cove Forum Visitor Notice(s)

Wooden Line

Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Courtesy Quick Links


Links Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in the quest for knowledge and support:

Jennifer Kirley's
Conway Business Services


Howard's
International Quality Services


Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting, and
Medical Devices Expert Forum


Bob Doering
Bob Doering's Blogs and,
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


Ajit Basrur
Claritas Consulting, LLC



International Standards Bodies - World Wide Standards Bodies

AIAG - Automotive Industry Action Group

ASQ - American Society for Quality

International Organization for Standardization - ISO Standards and Information

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology

View Poll Results: What part of the 9001 standard do you cite for "not following procedures"?
It should be written up under section 4.1 2 6.45%
It should be written up under section 7.5.1b 1 3.23%
Following procedures is implicit. I reference the procedure not followed, not the standard 22 70.97%
Other 6 19.35%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this Poll because you are not Logged In.


Some Related Topic Tags
training (general), employees (general)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  Post Number #1  
Old 8th August 2006, 10:39 AM
qualityboi's Avatar
qualityboi

 
 
Total Posts: 359
Question Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

How do you write up an audit finding when you observe that personnel are not following procedures?

Sponsored Links
  Post Number #2  
Old 8th August 2006, 10:47 AM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,118
Let Me Help You Re: Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

You don't - because it's not helpful!

What you won't get is effective or even appropriate corrective action, from such a finding. I believe that this type of audit report is what drives management nutz. You're only telling them half the info they need to get the issue corrected! Just like any 'puzzle' you need two bits of data.

So, even though they weren't 'following procedures', was the result satisfactory? Did the 'product' meet the internal or customer requirements, because, if so, then the procedure needs to be changed.

If not, then we need to find out what to do about sub-standard product (contain etc.) and then find out why the folks didn't 'follow' the procedure.

You see, one solution is infinitely easier to fix, if you include what's 'effective' as part of the audit finding!

Andy
  Post Number #3  
Old 8th August 2006, 11:09 AM
Cari Spears's Avatar
Cari Spears

 
 
Total Posts: 1,936
Re: Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN

You don't - because it's not helpful!
I disagree.

Write up a nonconformance to your internal procedure. Then everyone will be forced to look at the procedure and either revise it or delete it - or they may decide to address the reason personnel aren't following it.

Either way - if people aren't following established procedures - the people in charge need to determine why.
Thank You to Cari Spears for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #4  
Old 8th August 2006, 11:21 AM
ralphsulser's Avatar
ralphsulser

 
 
Total Posts: 1,573
Re: Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Cari Spears

I disagree.

Write up a nonconformance to your internal procedure. Then everyone will be forced to look at the procedure and either revise it or delete it - or they may decide to address the reason personnel aren't following it.

Either way - if people aren't following established procedures - the people in charge need to determine why.
I agree with Cari, ....5 whys
  Post Number #5  
Old 8th August 2006, 11:25 AM
ScottK's Avatar
ScottK

 
 
Total Posts: 2,761
Re: Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

I'm with Cari.
The main purpose of audits is to determine if the company is "doing what it says", is it not?

And I write it against the procedure not being followed, not necessarily a standard element.
  Post Number #6  
Old 8th August 2006, 11:25 AM
Coury Ferguson's Avatar
Coury Ferguson

 
 
Total Posts: 4,588
Re: Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN

You don't - because it's not helpful!
I also agree with Cari. There was a failure to follow documented procedures of the QMS, therefore it should be documented. and appropriate action taken.
  Post Number #7  
Old 8th August 2006, 11:30 AM
tyker

 
 
Total Posts: 423
Re: Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

I would write a nonconformity referencing the procedure.

It's not the auditor's job to determine why the procedure isn't being followed although, as an internal auditor, I might have a valid opinion. It's up to the owner of the relevant process to determine if there's a disciplinary/training issue or whether the people doing the job have genuinely found a better way of doing it.
  Post Number #8  
Old 8th August 2006, 11:32 AM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,118
Let Me Help You Re: Personnel Not Following Procedures - How do you write up an audit finding?

What is missing here is the 'effectiveness' of the situation. From my 25 years of auditing experience, I can safely say that this type of audit finding is simply insufficient to help management (who probably weren't involved in the audit, anyway) come to a conclusion about what needs to be fixed.

And no, I don't subscribe to the opinion that (internal) audits aren't there to (simply) confirm "we did what we said" - especially with the advent of the ISO 9001:2000 standard. If what's being achieved is a 'quality' result, then the procedure is probably wrong (since when did anyone really write an effective procedure that didn't need some input from the people don't the job?). If the result isn't a quality one, then yes, maybe someone does need to do some form of problem solving.........

O.K I'm in the minority, but then so were the folks who found out the world isn't flat...........

Andy
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > > >

Bookmarks



Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Emoticons are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Internal Audit finding versus External Audit finding mlthompson General Auditing Discussions 2 23rd June 2014 12:01 PM
How to Write Procedures without too many Details CATERAF ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17 7th February 2013 10:16 AM
To write or not to write. That is the question. How many procedures should I write? unitedc ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 28 11th June 2009 01:02 PM
Employee Reviews not completed - Audit Finding - Difficult Finding to Answer TheKaiz Internal Auditing 31 11th September 2008 11:43 AM
Audit Finding - In 'Registrar Language' what is the Definition of a 'Finding'? Eugene Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations 11 15th August 2004 07:32 PM



The time now is 12:54 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



Misc. Internal Links


NOTE: This forum uses "Cookies"