Divisions delay QMS Certification due to un-modified Organization Structure

D

Dubai_capi

hi,

am really disappointed and face a real obstacle-if i may say- in implementing ISO 9001:2008 DUE to divisions directors giving me excuses to delay certification. but they might be right in their concerns. the problem that is lately brought into discussion is that:
"our org structure document is not updated and approved" though the top management has communicated in written documents what changes have taken place and whom are affected plus all the responsibilities have been explained in written documents.. so if our org structure document is not modified ( pls note to approve the org structure we need an external approver of higher level authority", shall we delay certification.:(

i need an expert opinion in this case, will this reasoning of not having an approved and modified strcuture document be valid?

pls advice..
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
Re: very urgent: divisions delay QMS certification due to un-modified org structure

i need an expert opinion in this case, will this reasoning of not having an approved and modified strcuture document be valid?

pls advice..
</begin sarcasm>They are correct. No company can go for ISO 9001 certification without a current organizational chart. Actually it's hard to fathom how any organization can operate without a current organizational chart. </end sarcasm>
sarcasm.gif
 

suildur

Involved In Discussions
hi,

am really disappointed and face a real obstacle-if i may say- in implementing ISO 9001:2008 DUE to divisions directors giving me excuses to delay certification. but they might be right in their concerns. the problem that is lately brought into discussion is that:
"our org structure document is not updated and approved" though the top management has communicated in written documents what changes have taken place and whom are affected plus all the responsibilities have been explained in written documents.. so if our org structure document is not modified ( pls note to approve the org structure we need an external approver of higher level authority", shall we delay certification.:(

i need an expert opinion in this case, will this reasoning of not having an approved and modified strcuture document be valid?

pls advice..

Can you please clearly define what you mean with "to approve the org structure we need an external approver of higher level authority"?
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
hi,

am really disappointed and face a real obstacle-if i may say- in implementing ISO 9001:2008 DUE to divisions directors giving me excuses to delay certification. but they might be right in their concerns. the problem that is lately brought into discussion is that:
"our org structure document is not updated and approved" though the top management has communicated in written documents what changes have taken place and whom are affected plus all the responsibilities have been explained in written documents.. so if our org structure document is not modified ( pls note to approve the org structure we need an external approver of higher level authority", shall we delay certification.:(

i need an expert opinion in this case, will this reasoning of not having an approved and modified strcuture document be valid?

pls advice..
It could be a minor issue during a certification audit but only of documental type if the organization chart structure falls inside controlled quality documentation.
Responsibilities and authorites shall be defined and recognized across all over the organization. This is one of the requirements that top mgmt shall assure according to 5.5.1 clause.
Organization structure document is only a way or method to do so but it is not mandatory according to ISO 9001 . If the mgmt can demonstrate that the roles and new responsibilities have been effectively communicated ( as you have said in the post as per written documents) and the interviewed members are aware of them, I do not see any problem.
You should show the old organization structure document and the new one too, saying that the final approval is on going.
My question is: how much does it take this approval? Could it be finalised before the certification audit??:bigwave:
 
Q

Qwatcher2

As a Registrar Lead Assessor conducting registration audits, I must differ with your responses. 5.5.1 states "Top management shall ensure that responsibilities and authorities are defined and communicated within the organization". The standard does not define "How" to meet the requirements. It is the company who decides what they need to have. It DOES NOT require a Organizational chart and a OR chart would only be a part of meeting this requirement. Most companies choose to have one but it is , again, NOT an ISO 9001 requirement.

On the flip side, if you told me you have and use it as a way of partially meeting this requirement and it was not current, then it would be a nonconformance. ONLY because your company choose to use this and you didn't keep it current.
 
D

Dubai_capi

Re: very urgent: divisions delay QMS certification due to un-modified org structure

however, ISO 9001 doest require that responsibilities and authorities defined and communicated by only using org chart.. as discussed by QUSYS that the approval of the final org chart is in the process and it takes time to since we do require a higher level authority that we report to in order for them to approve our structure..
 
D

Dubai_capi

since we report to another authority and they do approve org structure of different gov entities. the final approval of the structure is with them..
 
D

Dubai_capi

It could be a minor issue during a certification audit but only of documental type if the organization chart structure falls inside controlled quality documentation.
Responsibilities and authorites shall be defined and recognized across all over the organization. This is one of the requirements that top mgmt shall assure according to 5.5.1 clause.
Organization structure document is only a way or method to do so but it is not mandatory according to ISO 9001 . If the mgmt can demonstrate that the roles and new responsibilities have been effectively communicated ( as you have said in the post as per written documents) and the interviewed members are aware of them, I do not see any problem.
You should show the old organization structure document and the new one too, saying that the final approval is on going.
My question is: how much does it take this approval? Could it be finalised before the certification audit??:bigwave:

it will take sometime.. but not before the audit.. so is it wise to delay it..
 
D

Dubai_capi

As a Registrar Lead Assessor conducting registration audits, I must differ with your responses. 5.5.1 states "Top management shall ensure that responsibilities and authorities are defined and communicated within the organization". The standard does not define "How" to meet the requirements. It is the company who decides what they need to have. It DOES NOT require a Organizational chart and a OR chart would only be a part of meeting this requirement. Most companies choose to have one but it is , again, NOT an ISO 9001 requirement.

On the flip side, if you told me you have and use it as a way of partially meeting this requirement and it was not current, then it would be a nonconformance. ONLY because your company choose to use this and you didn't keep it current.

well, we dont rely on the org structure mentioned.. we rely on that top management communicate about roles and responsibilities.. and our top management is effective in this and it communicates it through administrative decisions by emails and sending copies to the related personnel..
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
it will take sometime.. but not before the audit.. so is it wise to delay it..

It depends. Are you in stage 1 or stage 2 of the certification audit?
Speak in advance with your Certification Body about this topic.
In my opinion, if you have evidence of the robustness of your QMS , you could also proceed.
Acconding to what you wrote, written communication have been given and the final approval should be formally because, I guess, who shall finally approve , was involved too.
If the organization has a priority to get ISO 9001 certifcation within a certain timeframe, it could be not effective to delay this project.
Let us know and give other details to better frame the situation.
Hope this helps:bigwave:
 
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