Are Records Forms which should be Documented?

[sun rise]

Dear friends

are records should be documented and reordered in a form? like record of suppliers evaluation or record of internal audit

because some one told me that must every record should be recorded in a form which will documented in the procedure.

at our internal audit procedure, we didn't have any forms except internal audit plane and determined auditor

the check list of audit and the audit report and corrective action and follow up are written by hand on blank white paper

and all of these paper are kept as a record ?

Is this NC

 

[Randy]

Re: Are records should be documented?

Your Post here is the form of a record, is it on a Form? Not really

Do records have to be documented? How can you record something without documenting it?

The ISO definition of a RECORD is "document stating results achieved or providing evidence of activities performed"

And the ISO definition od DOCUMENT is "information and its supporting medium"

And SUPPORTING MEDIUM can be "paper, magnetic, electronic or optical computer disc, photograph or master sample, or a combination thereof"

Your answer is contained within the definitions provided by the ISO

 

[sun rise]

Re: Are records should be documented?

thanks Mr. Randy

ok we already record the result of audit on a paper

but i mean we didn't design a form for this and didn't give a code for this form

just we mention in the internal audit procedure that the record of internal audit shall include the nature of nonconformity (How , When , where...) and the corrective action taken and how to follow up the corrective action.

is this acceptable?

Your Post here is the form of a record, is it on a Form? Not really

Do records have to be documented? How can you record something without documenting it?

The ISO definition of a RECORD is "document stating results achieved or providing evidence of activities performed"

And the ISO definition od DOCUMENT is "information and its supporting medium"

And SUPPORTING MEDIUM can be "paper, magnetic, electronic or optical computer disc, photograph or master sample, or a combination thereof"

Your answer is contained within the definitions provided by the ISO

 

[Randy]

Re: Are records should be documented?

Nothing says that you must use a form, you're from the Middle East, that leaves a whole lot of area to cover, but lets look back at Middle East history...Did the Ancient Egyptians use forms to "record" their history? How about the Chaldeans, Sumerians, Persians, or Assyrians? The answers to all of them is NO, but there are RECORDS that they created and that we can read, to help us gain understanding...

 

[Randy Lefferts]

Re: Are records should be documented?

thanks Mr. Randy

ok we already record the result of audit on a paper

but i mean we didn't design a form for this and didn't give a code for this form

just we mention in the internal audit procedure that the record of internal audit shall include the nature of nonconformity (How , When , where...) and the corrective action taken and how to follow up the corrective action.

is this acceptable?

What Randy is saying is that records don't have to be contained within a form.

Typically, forms are a nice, easy way to capture information that will then be stored as a record. Is it required that records be captured on a form? No.

That being said, forms can make your life a bit easier by standardizing the content. If you have different personnel capturing the same type of data, in a different way, it would seem to make sense to standardize it. Sure each record may contain the appropriate information it is supposed to, but if you ever need to analyze the data, it may be a headache having to decipher how each person captured it.

As far as your auditing capturing corrective action, well, those are two different areas. An auditing system isn't concerned with corrective action. Auditing is simply concerned with determining whether your systems are working. Corrective action on the other hands isn't concerned whether you are auditing. Corrective actions should fix the problems you have identified that warrant a corrective action.

These are 2 unique systems that are separate, but related. My point being that you really don't capture corrective actions in an audit. Auditing will find out whether you are doing well or not. Corrective actions will fix those things you aren't doing correctly (hopefully).

 

[ssz102]

Re: Are records should be documented?

generally speaking, all records should be maintained so that comply with the intent of ISO;
and the ISO standard mentioned everything need to instruction and process and records and these done must be consistent

 

[WannaDoQA]

I have a related question - can a record be in log-form? As in, a record of incoming inspections that are typed into an Excel file? Is that a record? One of our customers recently audited us and did not like us using excel/some other electronic form as a record. They said "that is not a record, that is a LOG". They wanted to see WRITTEN things, but this causes us a lot of extra paperwork that is eliminated if we just enter data into an excel file. That way we can also quickly and easily sort data and see trends. What is everyone's take?

 

[Randy]

A record can be in any format YOU wish for it to be if it is your record

If it is my record then I get to define how it looks

If it's the governments record, then the government get to say how it looks

 

[AndyN]

I have a related question - can a record be in log-form? As in, a record of incoming inspections that are typed into an Excel file? Is that a record? One of our customers recently audited us and did not like us using excel/some other electronic form as a record. They said "that is not a record, that is a LOG". They wanted to see WRITTEN things, but this causes us a lot of extra paperwork that is eliminated if we just enter data into an excel file. That way we can also quickly and easily sort data and see trends. What is everyone's take?

I'd suggest your customer auditor is incorrect... and that you should charge them for the extra work they are (apparently) demanding of you...

 

[Randy]

Oh yeah, Andy is correct, I'll go a step further because I am less civilized

Tell your auditor he is out of line with his demands....It doesn't matter what the auditor wants, wishes, desires, hopes for, or demands...He is there the verify that whatever is supposed to happen, is happening as required, is being performed as planned, and is effective in its performance

Tell the auditor he can go wish upon a star.