Auditors Auditing Against ISO 9001:2015 Draft

[rafael_josem]

Hello,

I have noticed that some auditors are already auditing against the committee draft of the ISO 9001:2015. Most of them classify the findings as observations.

In my opinion it's not right. The document is barely in its initial draft and findings like that may confuse people. What if some of those requirements don't make it to the final draft?

I don't know if you're seeing the same practice.

 

[Big Jim]

Re: Auditors Auditing Again ISO 9001:2015 Draft

Auditors have the latitude to say a lot as an observation but that doesn't make it a good idea.

This sort of thing would better be served as a verbal comment rather than as a documented observation.

 

[db]

Re: Auditors Auditing Again ISO 9001:2015 Draft

I will agree with Big Jim on this. But my main concern is that it might be too early in the process to even suggest things. I would hate to make a bunch of changes only to have the requirements change. You would probably be safer with the final draft. I don't think it is too early to start letting folks know what kind of changes they are likely to see. This could give them some sort of head-up as to what they might face in the future... just to get them thinking about it. But I don't think the ink is dry enough to warrant making changes.

 

[Boingo-boingo]

I have noticed that some auditors are already auditing against the committee draft of the ISO 9001:2015. Most of them classify the findings as observations.

Rafael, not only it is not right, but it brings the CB service delivery into question. When an organization contractually engages a CB to perform audits as part of a certification program, the scope of the audits is defined.

Auditor MUST not change the contractual arrangements unilaterally and start auditing the system to requirements and standards as they seem fit.

A CB might try to sell the idea as value added service, being proactive, blah, blah, blah. But, they are also using their time and personnel to "verify the system against requirements" that simply do not apply to the audit at hand.

If you are the CB client, I would STRONGLY encourage you to make the CB stop the practice, UNLESS, of course, they have discussed this with the organization PRIOR to the audit and the client has agreed to allow the practice.

As always, CB's and their auditors MUST understand that they have signed up for a contractual obligation and they can not change and disregard the contract without the other party's consent and agreement.

 

[insect warfare]

Simply put, auditors should not be auditing to anything that is not a requirement (precisely because requirements help define scope). Auditing to a draft document (or guidance document, as I've read about in other threads) is not only incompetent on the CB's part, but is also damaging to their credibility.

Brian

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

This is the proverbial early days. While I read everything about the drafts and changes on the way to a published standard and try to anticipate and prepare for what will come, I still have to say:

What's the rush?

/Claes

 

[insect warfare]

This is the proverbial early days. While I read everything about the drafts and changes on the way to a published standard and try to anticipate and prepare for what will come, I still have to say:

What's the rush?

/Claes

....if there are transition plans that accompany new standards as they are released, there is no need for anyone to jump the gun until the timing is right.

Brian

 

[rafael_josem]

Rafael, not only it is not right, but it brings the CB service delivery into question. When an organization contractually engages a CB to perform audits as part of a certification program, the scope of the audits is defined.

Auditor MUST not change the contractual arrangements unilaterally and start auditing the system to requirements and standards as they seem fit.

A CB might try to sell the idea as value added service, being proactive, blah, blah, blah. But, they are also using their time and personnel to "verify the system against requirements" that simply do not apply to the audit at hand.

If you are the CB client, I would STRONGLY encourage you to make the CB stop the practice, UNLESS, of course, they have discussed this with the organization PRIOR to the audit and the client has agreed to allow the practice.

As always, CB's and their auditors MUST understand that they have signed up for a contractual obligation and they can not change and disregard the contract without the other party's consent and agreement.

That's totally the excuse. They say that it's a value added service and they have a new audit methodology, bla bla. I have heard several cases where auditors are requiring the organization to perform risk analysis (and as usual, organizations start hiring instructors and consultants so they can show the auditor that they answered the finding -.-). One of them even told me that Risk Analysis is coming anyway with ISO 9001:2015.

I just thought that maybe they ran out of NC heheh.

 

[insect warfare]

That's totally the excuse. They say that it's a value added service and they have a new audit methodology, bla bla. I have heard several cases where auditors are requiring the organization to perform risk analysis (and as usual, organizations start hiring instructors and consultants so they can show the auditor that they answered the finding -.-). One of them even told me that Risk Analysis is coming anyway with ISO 9001:2015.

I just thought that maybe they ran out of NC heheh.

All this amounts to glorified entrapment, if you ask me. That would be like an officer of the law trying to arrest someone for violating a new open-bottle law before the law actually goes into effect. This is why law enforcement utilizes transition plans and communication avenues - to help people prepare for the transition - not to close the net on them.

Brian

 

[AndyN]

I would be notifying the CB that their auditor was pulling this stunt and ask for clarification of the "value". Unless it's an "official" line taken by your CB's management, I'd encourage you to give feedback, so they can nip it in the bud, or you can start looking for another CB who know "value" when they see it!