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Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
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Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015
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  Post Number #25  
Old 8th October 2014, 10:46 PM
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element79

 
 
Total Posts: 15
Re: Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015

for the replies, guys. I guess the question whether or not it is required to document anything on risk management (used to be PA) based on the DIS is still open-ended and could very well depend on the auditor's interpretation.

It's just that we're STILL in the process of filling the documentation gaps. We certainly don't want to go down the path towards overdoing things, especially as most of the staff (and some of the management) have a strong aversion to anything that involves documenting/recording their work.

I wanna see that Dilbert cartoon too.

- Au

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  Post Number #26  
Old 9th October 2014, 01:59 AM
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John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,461
Lightbulb Re: Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by element79 View Post

for the replies, guys. I guess the question whether or not it is required to document anything on risk management (used to be PA) based on the DIS is still open-ended and could very well depend on the auditor's interpretation.

It's just that we're STILL in the process of filling the documentation gaps. We certainly don't want to go down the path towards overdoing things, especially as most of the staff (and some of the management) have a strong aversion to anything that involves documenting/recording their work.

I wanna see that Dilbert cartoon too.

- Au
Au,

First it depends on the auditee's determination of what is necessary. Then it depends on the auditee's willingness and ability to defend the limited extent of documented information in the audits of their management system.

We depend on auditor interpretations only when the defense is weak or the auditor should not be the auditor.

After all, to audit is to listen.

John
Thank You to John Broomfield for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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  Post Number #27  
Old 9th October 2014, 07:15 AM
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pldey42

 
 
Total Posts: 429
Re: Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015

"to audit is to listen" - well said, John.

I think that to allow auditors to take control of documentation pertaining to risk-based thinking would be a mistake. They - we - tend to be conservative and they'll maybe want every last risk that can be imagined, significant or not, to be considered. I think it will be important to manage a relationship with the CB of mutual respect, acknowledging legitimate risks they bring to our attention (e.g. those they learn of when visiting their other clients, of which we're unaware) but firmly retaining control.

If they persist in wasting our time with daft risks, I think we'll need to be assertive in managing them with questions like,

"Show me the shall?" (The requirements for risk management are very abstract, deliberately so in my opinion, so that organizations can do what is appropriate; we should not let auditors dilute it with their own conservative interpretations (anxieties) - not that the good ones will.)

"Where does it say that 'the organization shall maintain documented information to the extent the auditor thinks necessary?" (It doesn't)

I would avoid the temptation to write down a risk and tolerate it, just to shut the auditor up, for that's the seed for over-documentation.

It's also important to understand that sometimes organizations avoid writing down certain risks, communicating about them verbally instead, to avoid liability issues should something bad happen. When things go to court, written risk assessments can be subject to disclosure and misrepresented by the opposition for the purposes of inflating damages ("You knew about it!"). We could debate whether that's right or wrong, but my understanding is that even in well-governed businesses, some of it stays off the record because of the vagaries of legal proceedings. (I imagine this is less true of regulated industries than others.)

I think essential elements of managing this will include (a) a relationship of mutual respect, (b) a risk appetite that is understood and shared by the auditor, and (c) documented information to the extent necessary to convince current and future managers (and therefore auditors) at the organization that prudent risk management is in place - especially when there's an incident and heads on platters are demanded.

Pat
Thank You to pldey42 for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #28  
Old 9th October 2014, 06:26 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,366
Re: Required Documents/Records in ISO 9001:2015

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by qpled View Post

Now I am trying to find that Dilbert cartoon!
I did find the one about the Records Retention Department throwing documents away since no one ever asked for them back...

that was my favorite of all the Dilbert ISO cartoons....the infamous, round, silver record storage cylinder....
Thanks to Helmut Jilling for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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