ISO 9001, ISO 17020 and ISO 3834 Joint (Integrated) QMS

[speen]

Hello,
My company has been struggling with ISO certification for the last couple of years. We're a small company with the following structure:

Location 1:
NDT & Industrial Services Department.
Providing non-destructive testing, pressure-testing, pickling, hot oil flushing and chemical cleaning services. 6 employees.

Location 2:
Welding & Surface Treatment Department.
Providing welding, sandblasting, painting & assembly services. 8 employees.

Location 3:
Machining Department.
Providing various machining services. 1 employee.

As of now the management has decided that Location 1 shall develop a QMS according to ISO 17020, while Location 2 shall develop one according to ISO 3834. Location 3 has no plans for any QMS atm.

I am not involved in either of these QMS projects. That being said I have great interest in seeing the company developing a well structured and organized QMS.
My point of view is that the company should aim for ISO 9001 first.
Because of my view I have researched abit on ISO 9001. One of my finding was the Documentation Numbering - Families .pdf sheet posted by Patricia Ravanello.

Now for my question.
Would it be sensible to use this approach with 3 different SOP's for Product Realization (1 for each department).

E.g

• SOP-10 :: NDT & Industrial Services Realization
• SOP-11 :: Welding & Surface Treatment Realization
• SOP-12 :: Machining Realization

Now within these SOP's would it be possible to define and document the requirements in ISO 17020 / ISO 3834?

PS!
If anyone knows of a standard that defines the requirements for machining company's I would appreciate it.

Kind Regards

 

[Jen Kirley]

Welcome to the Cove!

It seems to me you are imagining more complexity than you need.

I see no reason why you can't make a single integrated quality management system with a manual, procedures, work instructions and record keeping that suit your needs, help you ensure customer satisfaction and oh by the way, conform to the standards' requirements. It is easier to do that and ask "how does XYZ conform to the standard's requirements - do we need to make a change? If so, what change is needed and practical for us?" than to list a bunch of requirements and say "Now we must write procedures to do all these things."

Does that make sense?

 

[John Broomfield]

speen,

I agree with Jennifer. You seem preoccupied with writing procedures instead of understanding your organization as a system of interacting processes.

Your instincts are right. It is advisable first to develop the management system than actually runs your company so it is process-based and meets the requirements of ISO 9001.

Then you and your colleagues can seek and capture or design any necessary processes and control measures so that one organizational management also conforms to the other system standards where it needs to.

You need more confidence in your machine shop's management system than assuming it does not already fulfill 90% of the requirements specified by the standard (BTW, ISO 9001 is the standard most suited to machine shops).

So, involve your colleagues in analyzing and understanding the management system you already have (by flowcharting it) instead of ignoring it and attempting to impose procedures written around the standard,

Keep coming back with your questions,

John

 

[Mallya]

Based on your situation taking into account you still struggling with QMS (yourself and company) my advice don't complicate life it better to start with ISO 9001 and proceed with inter grating other systems into existing system life would be easier to you and your fellow staff who need to understand importance of QMS to their operations

Rgs

Benny

 

[Hershal]

Hello,
My company has been struggling with ISO certification for the last couple of years. We're a small company with the following structure:

Location 1:
NDT & Industrial Services Department.
Providing non-destructive testing, pressure-testing, pickling, hot oil flushing and chemical cleaning services. 6 employees.

Location 2:
Welding & Surface Treatment Department.
Providing welding, sandblasting, painting & assembly services. 8 employees.

Location 3:
Machining Department.
Providing various machining services. 1 employee.

As of now the management has decided that Location 1 shall develop a QMS according to ISO 17020, while Location 2 shall develop one according to ISO 3834. Location 3 has no plans for any QMS atm.

I am not involved in either of these QMS projects. That being said I have great interest in seeing the company developing a well structured and organized QMS.
My point of view is that the company should aim for ISO 9001 first.
Because of my view I have researched abit on ISO 9001. One of my finding was the Documentation Numbering - Families .pdf sheet posted by Patricia Ravanello.

Now for my question.
Would it be sensible to use this approach with 3 different SOP's for Product Realization (1 for each department).

E.g

• SOP-10 :: NDT & Industrial Services Realization
• SOP-11 :: Welding & Surface Treatment Realization
• SOP-12 :: Machining Realization

Now within these SOP's would it be possible to define and document the requirements in ISO 17020 / ISO 3834?

PS!
If anyone knows of a standard that defines the requirements for machining company's I would appreciate it.

Kind Regards

There are numerous questions. First, it may help to know your country, as there may be significant regulatory requirements for the activities you describe. Those must be considered. A bit of information can help folks here provide a better answer.

Next, you are making the best possible move. However, you will run into challenges.

Next, you will have different organizations providing oversight. For example, ISO9001 will require a Registrar. ISO/IEC 17020:2012 requires an accrediting body (AB) for accreditation. It is not possible to obtain both from the same organization. Registrars must be accredited by an IAF-Signatory AB, 17020 accreditation must be provided by an ILAC-Signatory AB.

First thing to do is get the standards and read them. Next, understand they have different purposes! ISO9001 tends to be more aligned with manufacturing, while 17020 is inspection - NOT manufacturing.

So, a little more information will help us here to provide you better information.

 

[speen]

Hello and thanks for the welcome and constructive replies.

Jennifer hit the nail on the head. Overcomplicate is my middlename. I'm working in it! :truce:

Now as for country of origin, we're located in Norway.

Regarding ISO 17020, the following statement is the reason we are implementing it:

From NORSOK M-601:2008
Companies performing visual inspection and NDT activities shall have a quality system in compliance with
ISO 17020 or equivalent.

Now as you can see, it does not state that you have to be accredited. That's why we are not aiming for that, at least for now.

So as of now my company is only aiming for a ISO 3834 certification (Quality management of the welding process).

Hershal has a good point though about reading the standards. I'm going to dive back into 9001 first (as I still belive this is the standard is fundamental for any QMS).

 

[shaahid]

Hi
dear Brothers how r u i hope u r fine
my question is

whats is the risk impartiality.
it did demonstrate how to avoid the risk

 

[Kronos147]

Welcome to the cove.

ISO is working to make all the standards easier to encompass under one system definition (or one manual if that makes it easier to think of). There is nothing to stop an organization from doing that now.

For each standard, read the stuff before the requirements. A lot. It's great info that usually gets glossed over.

You are asking for advice. Here is mine, take it with a grain of salt.
1) It's your system. If what you actually do works for you, make the paper system reflect that

2) Keep it simple

3) Process based. Don't over do this one. NDT, welding, management/QC, ..., and focus on those processes with respect to the requirements.

If all standards require control of documents and records, 1 procedure will suffice...