ISO 9001 Certified but not complying with ISO clauses

[QAMTY]

Hi everybody
I have a question regarding Certification in ISO 9001, hopping to receive feedback from you.

I have an ISO System, we have covered all the clauses, Internal audits are coming, then the certification process.

My question is:

Because we need to have it included in our system, we added the finance process (not required by ISO) obviously if It's documented with procedures, KPI's etc, then it should be auditable.

An example: if Finance process is resulting with nonconformities, could it be a reason for not passing the certification?

Compared against

Other case: For sure if NCs: resulted in design 7.3, nonconformity product 8.3, 4.2.3 (ISO clauses), it's clear, high risk for not geeting certified exist.

Please share your experiences


Thanks

 

[prady2581]

Re: ISO Certified not complying with ISO clauses?

Hi
Standard requires you to identify your core and support process in your QMS Manual , so if it is reflecting then yes, NC will be applicable for Finance.

But Iam keen to know what factors / parts of ISO 9001 is applicable to Finance process in your environment.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: ISO Certified not complying with ISO clauses?

Hi
Standard requires you to identify your core and support process in your QMS Manual , so if it is reflecting then yes, NC will be applicable for Finance.

There is no requirement to identify "core" and "support" processes, as such in ISO 9001:2008. The requirement is to describe the interactions of QMS processes.

 

[Mark Meer]

Re: ISO Certified not complying with ISO clauses?

As the old saying goes "Do what you say, say what you do".

So if you've included processes for handling finances in the scope of your QMS, they should technically be subject to the same general controls as other processes.

That being said, I doubt if any ISO certification body would pay much attention. Their surveillance audits will likely just focus on the "standard" processes.

So, if these financial processes are in the scope of your QMS, include them in your internal audits... but I wouldn't worry too much about it affecting your certification.

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO Certified not complying with ISO clauses?

What's the product? What's the scope of your certification?

Mark - ISO 9001 isn't and never was "say what you do...." Etc. that was a commonly held belief in the 90s and is totally inappropriate for the version today.

It' still about products and meeting customers requirements, so Finance may not be audited at certification

 

[Mark Meer]

Re: ISO Certified not complying with ISO clauses?

Mark - ISO 9001 isn't and never was "say what you do...." Etc. that was a commonly held belief in the 90s and is totally inappropriate for the version today.

I strongly disagree with your assertion that the saying "Say what you do, do what you say" is "totally inappropriate".

Within the scope of your QMS, if you are NOT documenting what you are doing ("say what you do"), or you are NOT abiding by the requirements you've established ("do what you say"), I'd say this violates the spirit of an ISO quality system, no matter what version you're talking about.

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO Certified not complying with ISO clauses?

Of course you disagree Mark. The fact remains that this trite saying was coined by Dupont as an early adopter because - at the time - if you had documentation for anything and everything you could pass a CB audit. Don't forget there was really no clear requirement to show effectiveness. Today we have a clear requirement for that and less emphasis on documents (even less with the next version)

 

[Mark Meer]

Re: ISO Certified not complying with ISO clauses?

Ah AndyN, though totally off-topic from this thread, I can't resist the baiting for good discussion...

The fact remains that this trite saying was coined by Dupont...

While the origin of a saying is interesting, I don't see that it has much bearing on its relevance. Whether coined by Dupont in the 90's, some ancient religious figure centuries ago, or my 5-year-old son yesterday, doesn't diminish the fact that a saying can still be a good rule-of-thumb as far as quality-system management goes.

Today we have a clear requirement for [effectiveness] and less emphasis on documents

I'd argue that demonstrating effectiveness is dependent on first establishing requirements & controls, and then maintaining records of activities in order to collect data. Documentation is still very important!

While the saying may seem trite, the fact is that if you haven't properly established controls, or you haven't adequately documented activities, then you'll have a tough time demonstrating the effectiveness of your system.

 

[AndyN]

Your so called "rule of thumb" has actually conspired against Quality management such that people believe all manner of myths (did you read my book?) like "you can make concrete life jackets as long as you have a procedure" etc. Were you around in the early 90s to see the bureaucracies people created because they believed the myth?

 

[somashekar]

Because we need to have it included in our system, we added the finance process (not required by ISO) obviously if It's documented with procedures, KPI's etc, then it should be auditable.

An example: if Finance process is resulting with nonconformities, could it be a reason for not passing the certification?

Since you have included the finance process interaction in your QMS, I can see that you are connecting it to the clause 6.1. Also perhaps interacting with the clause 6.3 / 6.4; clause 7.2 and the 7.4.
If I am correct with you, then how your infrastructure / work environment and the customer process and purchase process are operational and well interacting with finance as a requirement that you have yourself determined will be looked into.
The same you will also look in your internal audits.
Worst case, you could have a NC relating to provision or resources, which will not effect your certification for sure. Any open issues could also be tagged to the customer process, purchase process or the infrastructure provision.
How you have handled these in your internal audits and reviewed results of the audit in the management review will be of interest.
For sure, I can say that your CB will appreciate you for having included the finance into the QMS. Just manage it well in the required interactions and do not step into finance operational issues.