What is the granularity of your processes at Turtle Diagrams?

rogerpenna

Quite Involved in Discussions
The turtle diagrams in my company basically are descriptions of the whole area/sector. Like "Acquisitions Area", "Quality Management Area", "Contracts Area". In the center of the diagram, we actually include several different processes.

I guess that somewhats helps auditing. As auditors usually audit areas. If they would audit multi-area processes through the Turtle Diagrams, they would have to go around the company and even outside (as we are a Civil Infrastructure Company).

On the other hand, I understand most Turtle Diagrams have more granularity, that is, they map smaller processes. Maybe even sub-processes.

We have 13 Turtle Diagrams, by Area/Sector. I imagine that companies with more granularity will have up to 50??? (if I count the processes listed in the center box of our Turtle Diagrams, we probably have more. Quality alone has like 12 Processes, such as "Internal Audits Planning and Execution", "Quality System Training", "Control and Revision of Documents and Registers", "Control Instruments Calibration", "Non-Conformity Control", etc)
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
The turtle diagrams in my company basically are descriptions of the whole area/sector. Like "Acquisitions Area", "Quality Management Area", "Contracts Area". In the center of the diagram, we actually include several different processes.

I guess that somewhats helps auditing. As auditors usually audit areas. If they would audit multi-area processes through the Turtle Diagrams, they would have to go around the company and even outside (as we are a Civil Infrastructure Company).

On the other hand, I understand most Turtle Diagrams have more granularity, that is, they map smaller processes. Maybe even sub-processes.

We have 13 Turtle Diagrams, by Area/Sector. I imagine that companies with more granularity will have up to 50??? (if I count the processes listed in the center box of our Turtle Diagrams, we probably have more. Quality alone has like 12 Processes, such as "Internal Audits Planning and Execution", "Quality System Training", "Control and Revision of Documents and Registers", "Control Instruments Calibration", "Non-Conformity Control", etc)

roger,

Areas are not processes. Processes are work by man, machines, animals or a combination that convert inputs into output. Your organization is a system of interacting processes.

To determine your system’s key processes you start with what your organization does to fulfill its mission such as: strategic planning, understand customer needs and then all the way through your organization of interacting functions to convert those needs into cash in the organization’s bank. These interactions include customers and suppliers and any other external entities that are essential to satisfy customer needs.

This end to end process is known as your core process and all other key processes such as purchasing, recruiting, training, controlling documentation, managing infrastructure, continually improving performance and auditing support it; indeed these are known as support processes.

The core process is captured (documented) but lacks enough granularity to act as a documented procedure. For this granularity you determine the key processes the comprise the core process such as marketing, designing service and (perhaps) products, planning production, production, delivery, invoicing and controlling credit. For this you’ll have worked with top management and they will have identified the process owners with who you work to capture each the key processes and their interactions.

Instead of using (widely deprecated) turtle diagrams, my clients created deployment flowcharts (using Teamflow or Visio) to act as procedures as a result of analyzing the key processes to capture them as they actually work (to fulfill their objectives) and interact with other processes in the system. The only documented procedure not flowcharted is Filing and Archiving because this works best as a table or spreadsheet.

Within processes and their documented procedures you may identify critical tasks where instructions are necessary to specify how the task is completed. Examples may include Validating Production Processes or Engaging Customers with Social Media (as part of the marketing process).

With a robust document coding scheme your system documentation will show how the document procedures, instructions and forms hang together.

Please note that it is not possible to document the whole system of processes and their interactions but you’re making sure that you are capturing what work adds value and prevents loss.

It’s reassessing risks and documenting how those risks (positive and negative) are addressed. BTW, most, normal people, call positive risks: opportunities!

If you want to assist your auditors then instead of turtle diagrams you could include a matrix (spreadsheet) of each system standard’s clauses and your system documentation at the procedure level (being as every instruction and form has a parent procedure).

I wish you every success,

John
 
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rogerpenna

Quite Involved in Discussions
Yes, I understand areas are not processes.

On the other hand, can´t Turtle Diagrams be used with Areas instead of individual processes?


We are implementing BPMS so in the future we will have all our processes and workflows mapped.



How do audits work in your companies? Do auditors audit AREAS or do they audit PROCESSES? If they Audit Processes, do they move between the areas following the process flow?
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
roger,

Sorry.

Auditors plan the flow of their audits to sample enough to fulfill the audit objectives stated in their audit plan.

During system audits (for example: to determine conformity with a system standard) they tend to sample and interview the people involved in the core process (from needs to cash) at their place of work followed by visits to the departments owning the support processes and ending with internal audit, corrective action and continual improvement and finally, revisiting with top management to sample management reviews (while providing a heads-up to the nature and evidence of any major nonconformity). Every now and then they check to see if they’ve addressed all of the clauses in the standard (third party) or the contract (second party).

During process audits auditors tend to follow the flow of the process including samples of the processes that serve the process they are auditing, again as necessary to fulfill the audit objective.

Never would I ask to see turtle diagrams, in fact I may see them as a bit of a distraction unless the employees are using them to plan or do or check or improve their work.

The degree of detail expected by auditors of system documentation tends to be whatever is necessary for the sampled process to be effective. Sometimes employees are confused or insulted by too much detail and sometimes they say they want more detail; in which case I would ask them what happened when they told management of their concerns.

Of course, auditors are also drawn to processes that may be responsible for customer complaints, ineffectiveness and repeated nonconformity.

Finally, we must bear in mind that the management system is only ever partially documented.

Best wishes,

John
 

AndyN

Moved On
Frankly, auditors do what they individually believe gets them results. Who knows if they audit areas or processes? Why are we even discussing the content of documents and granularity of detail when we don't create documents to suit auditors? Something seems fundamentally wrong here.
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
Agreed.

Prepare nothing especially for your auditors and let them find what they want for themselves. They ask when they want help.

It helps when management and their rep are quietly confident that their management system works well and conforms to the claimed standards.

...and well-crafted nonconformity statements are welcomed.
 

rogerpenna

Quite Involved in Discussions
Well, please, then forget the part of the question that mentioned audits.

Considering just turtle diagrams, can I use them for entire areas or should they be used only for individual processes. And if so, what is the granularity you often use?



The question is related to the fact we are not a process oriented organization. We intend to be, as we want to implement a BPMS.

All our docs, procedures, etc, are divided by area, not by process.
 
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John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
Well, please, then forget the part of the question that mentioned audits.

Considering just turtle diagrams, can I use them for entire areas or should they be used only for individual processes. And if so, what is the granularity you often use?



The question is related to the fact we are not a process oriented organization. We intend to be, as we want to implement a BPMS.

All our docs, procedures, etc, are divided by area, not by process.

roger,

The standard obliges us to develop our organization’s business management system so it is process-based (not area based) and conforms to the standard.

As to turtle diagrams may I refer you to this 2007 paper written by Mike Mickelwright:

https://m.qualitydigest.com/?ref=ht...er-article/auditors-turtle-diagrams-and-waste

As you can see Mike thinks turtle diagrams are a waste but he’s concerned that some consultants were still selling them.

We’re all here to learn so please describe how turtle diagrams add value for your organization.

Others, who are fans of turtle diagrams may chip in.

Many thanks,

John
 

AndyN

Moved On
I'm with Mike. I've never found Turtles to be useful at all. Worse, they are NOT an effective tool to document a QMS, they were plagiarised as a means to help hapless (QS-9000) auditors do process audits and not element audits. They are, frankly a sell-out to appease external auditors who accept them as being "good", when management can't "talk to" the use. Sadly, they don't actually describe a process! Anyone who has properly mapped a process will understand that.
 
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