Printed Documents are considered Uncontrolled

[Dwayne_Stout]

Can you have in your document control procedure a statement saying the "any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled; use only current version on local electronic file location"?
Use that statement for documents that do not have it written in the footer or stamp such? Will that satify the requirement for ISO 9001:2008 clause 4.2.3 (c) - to ensure that relevant versions of applicable documents are available at points of use?

 

[Pancho]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

Can you have in your document control procedure a statement saying the "any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled; use only current version on local electronic file location"?

Yes.

[Can you] Use that statement for documents that do not have it written in the footer or stamp such?

Remember that the standard requires you to effectively prevent the use of obsolete documents. If your users are properly trained on the fact that your printed docs are uncontrolled, then yes, the procedure would likely be sufficient.

Will that satify the requirement for ISO 9001:2008 clause 4.2.3 (c) - to ensure that relevant versions of applicable documents are available at points of use?

Not necessarily. This is a completely different requirement than your procedure's statement that "printed docs are uncontrolled".

Does everyone have access to the electronic files at points of use? Is the access practical? Is anyone using printed documentation instead of the electronic files? The answers to these questions should tell you whether you are meeting the standard's requirement for availability at points of use.

Good luck!
Pancho

 

[Dwayne_Stout]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

We are using MicroSoft SharePoint as our control system, each (paper mill) process area person has sole ownership of the document used for QMS. Access to these computers all located in many location throughout the entire mill.

 

[Pancho]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

We are using MicroSoft SharePoint as our control system, each (paper mill) process area person has sole ownership of the document used for QMS. Assess to these computers all located in many location throughtout the entire mill.

Seems the docs are indeed available at the points of use.

 

[ScottK]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

I think Pancho about covered what I would have answered.

It's exactly what we do - but we do cover it in a footer on all non-form documents.

But you still have to be on top of people who may print them out.
We got dinged in our re-reg to ISO-9001 a few month ago for a printed, obsolete procedure hung at a work station.
Just saying "well, that's uncontrolled" won't fly because they worker is still working to obsolete instructions.

 

[LSS Master]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

I agree with Scott. No amount of instructions, footnotes, or documentation will guarantee conformance. The culture has to be such that it supports conformance to standards, rules, and regs.

This is true with any aspect of control, especially when it involves change and/or insome way limits what a person can do. We Americans enjoy our freedom and really don't react well to anyone or anything telling, or instructing, us what to do.

It always comes down to a "people" issue, in my experience.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

But you still have to be on top of people who may print them out.
We got dinged in our re-reg to ISO-9001 a few month ago for a printed, obsolete procedure hung at a work station.

"Dinged"? What do you mean? Do you mean the auditor commented on it or similar? Fair and reasonable.

If you mean NC, not fair if only one 1 instance.

 

[JaneB]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

If your users are properly trained on the fact that your printed docs are uncontrolled, then yes, the procedure would likely be sufficient.

In and of itself, no. Sufficient to meet the requirements for procedure, yes. (Or is that what you meant?) Because you'd need also to have some level of confidence established via internal audit or similar that it was working in practice.

 

[ScottK]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

"Dinged"? What do you mean? Do you mean the auditor commented on it or similar? Fair and reasonable.

If you mean NC, not fair if only one 1 instance.

no it was not an NC - It was an "observation not affecting the outcome of the audit" in our registrar's terminology. Something that will be an NC next time if they find it again in the same area.

 

[Lisa B]

Re: Any printed documents are considered Uncontrolled

I think I am understanding my auditor now. He voiced he did not like my controls in my footer. It states "This document is valid for 24 hours from the date printed. It is the users responsibility to ensure they have the current revision of this document." Then there is a printed date and time.
He asked if we print copies everyday. I said no because the revision is still valid. When he asked how I had to show him every document so he could compare it to my documentation control list. When he found all was current he couldn't say anything and there wasn't even a concern on his report. But all of this has made me question my controls and maybe looking into a way where the auditor will not question it again.
I work in a small company where the manufacturing line doesn't have access to the computer to get the current Rev. We have trained our supervisors to make sure their employees have the current rev. Plus as part of my procedure for revising a document is to send an email informing all of the new revision. So far it is a good system in my opinion.
Any ideas or suggestions from anyone would be appreciated.