Overseas Supplier Troubles - Aerospace Composites

[Corsair]

Fellow Covers,

I am dealing with a trouble some overseas supplier that is under contract for a major aircraft builder.
As I may understand culture issues by now I believe they are running out of excuses.
Composite is the material they are dealing with.
The following are the major problems I'm having.

a) For a long period of time now they can not control their CNC machine process, several out of spec- conditions like profile, hole locations and hole diameters, as well as NDT inspection findings (porosity, delamination) etc-. This condition has been going on for several months now.
I visited this supplier last June and they told me that the process are still under development and that they working on it. I requested documentation on the action plans with no luck.

b) I insisted that whatever they are doing it needs to be documented and a Root Cause be initiated together with a Corrective Action, they keep writing Root Cause under investigation which is not acceptable.

c) I also insisted that QA needs to get more involved in monitoring these processes and keep a SPC run chart to control their Key Characteristics, also with no luck because their processes is still under development.

d) They did not complete and or not finish as of today an FAI per the AS9102 Std- which is contractual for them. An FAI with features out of control is not acceptable. Same excuse processes still under development.

e) In the mean time they are shipping non conforming parts to us under concessions on which we agree to because we are running late on our first assemblies. This represents an extra load for our MRB team.

These issues has been going on for almost a year now with no positive results on the manufacturing processes and or quality improvements.

What will be the correct approach with a supplier under this conditions?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Over Seas Supplier Troubles

The following are the major problems I'm having.

a) For a long period of time now they can not control their CNC machine process, several out of spec- conditions like profile, hole locations and hole diameters, as well as NDT inspection findings (porosity, delamination) etc-. This condition has been going on for several months now.
I visited this supplier last June and they told me that the process are still under development and that they working on it. I requested documentation on the action plans with no luck.

b) I insisted that whatever they are doing it needs to be documented and a Root Cause be initiated together with a Corrective Action, they keep writing Root Cause under investigation which is not acceptable.

c) I also insisted that QA needs to get more involved in monitoring these processes and keep a SPC run chart to control their Key Characteristics, also with no luck because their processes is still under development.

d) They did not complete and or not finish as of today an FAI per the AS9102 Std- which is contractual for them. An FAI with features out of control is not acceptable. Same excuse processes still under development.

e) In the mean time they are shipping non conforming parts to us under concessions on which we agree to because we are running late on our first assemblies. This represents an extra load for our MRB team.

These issues has been going on for almost a year now with no positive results on the manufacturing processes and or quality improvements.

I take their price is right... Sorry, but I couldn't resist the

What will be the correct approach with a supplier under this conditions?

That is an easy one: disqualify them, after developing an alternative source. But, much more importantly, you obviously must re-design your supplier selection process. This supplier has, is and will cost you dearly. Not only financially, but also reputation, and customer good will. Your organization is obviously not doing proper risk management when it comes to supplier selection and monitoring.

 

[qusys]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

Fellow Covers,

I am dealing with a trouble some overseas supplier that is under contract for a major aircraft builder.
As I may understand culture issues by now I believe they are running out of excuses.
Composite is the material they are dealing with.
The following are the major problems I'm having.

a) For a long period of time now they can not control their CNC machine process, several out of spec- conditions like profile, hole locations and hole diameters, as well as NDT inspection findings (porosity, delamination) etc-. This condition has been going on for several months now.
I visited this supplier last June and they told me that the process are still under development and that they working on it. I requested documentation on the action plans with no luck.

b) I insisted that whatever they are doing it needs to be documented and a Root Cause be initiated together with a Corrective Action, they keep writing Root Cause under investigation which is not acceptable.

c) I also insisted that QA needs to get more involved in monitoring these processes and keep a SPC run chart to control their Key Characteristics, also with no luck because their processes is still under development.

d) They did not complete and or not finish as of today an FAI per the AS9102 Std- which is contractual for them. An FAI with features out of control is not acceptable. Same excuse processes still under development.

e) In the mean time they are shipping non conforming parts to us under concessions on which we agree to because we are running late on our first assemblies. This represents an extra load for our MRB team.

These issues has been going on for almost a year now with no positive results on the manufacturing processes and or quality improvements.

What will be the correct approach with a supplier under this conditions?

Thanks in advance.

How did you select and evaluate this supplier?
Did you also qualify an alternative supplier?
Did you analyse this potentiale failure and have a contigency plan in place to assure business continuity as well?

 

[Jason PCSwitches]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

Who are they under contract with and what does your procedures say about supplier qualification, retention & not meeting requirements?

Do you have the option of finding an alternate source?

What does management have to say about this?

 

[Corsair]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

We are giving this suppliers too many chances and I have to go with Sydney on the price is right issue. The supplier is a well known aerospace organization located in South Africa.

Looks like disqualification from our AVL is not an option at the present time according to top management.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

We are giving this suppliers too many chances and I have to go with Sydney on the price is right issue. The supplier is a well known aerospace organization located in South Africa.

Looks like disqualification from our AVL is not an option at the present time according to top management.

Given this circumstance, the only option is one which we sometimes took with our suppliers who were either single source or long lead times precluded from going to alternate sources:

I had a specialist who previously worked for Boeing in investigating "field failures" (crashes!) of aircraft. He was my "go to" guy who would take up residence with a critical supplier faced with a problem unsolvable by its in-house personnel. He would educate and walk the supplier's personnel through the root cause investigation, corrective action, evaluation, etc. to resolve the issues causing the nonconformances. My guy's breadth of experience and knowledge allowed him to be effective in a variety of industries. It appears you really need only a CNC specialist with some knowledge of working with composite material. It would be VERY helpful if your specialist were also familiar with the brand of CNC machines used by your supplier - different brands have different idiosyncrasies.

Paying the expenses of such a specialist (not his salary - he should be on YOUR payroll and loyal to you) is a matter of negotiation if your current supplier contract does not have such provision.

FWIW:
I never pointed a finger of blame at a supplier, merely offered our "help" to expedite their own work in resolving the problem. (My guy had the skill to appear more like a friendly uncle than a stern taskmaster.) The ideal is to approach the situation as one of partner A helping partner B rather than posing it as "my way or the highway!"

 

[Jason PCSwitches]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

We are giving this suppliers too many chances and I have to go with Sydney on the price is right issue. The supplier is a well known aerospace organization located in South Africa.

Looks like disqualification from our AVL is not an option at the present time according to top management.

Document your findings and present it to top management. If they want to continue to do business with them you need to get them to sign-off on it.

Due to the supplier not meeting your requirements & failing to respond to your CA requests, you need to have evidence of why you are continuing to use them. This will also shift the responsibility from you (or whomever manages this aspect) to the actual individual who is making the call.

This is important as it very well may come up in a CB or customer audit; which will draw attention. Especially if everything appears askew.

You may also want to look at your customer contract to see if they have requirements for sub-tier suppliers. They may require you to use their ASL &/or seek approval for suppliers not listed. They may also have requirements relating to N/C product. This may completely change the ballgame.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

The supplier is a well known aerospace organization located in South Africa.

I checked OASIS and there are 11 (or so) AS9100 certified organizations in South Africa. If your supplier is one of them, you should escalate your concern to their CB's, via the OASIS feedback loop process.

If the CB is serious and you can provide them with ample evidence of the supplier's inability to address your corrective action requests, the CB should trigger a short notice audit of this supplier. Maybe the risk of losing their AS9100 certification might make this supplier more responsive.

I still think, based on your previous comments, that this supplier should be yanked from your AVL. But, in the interim, this is a possible path you should consider.

 

[Jeorg]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

Fellow Covers,

I am dealing with a trouble some overseas supplier that is under contract for a major aircraft builder.
As I may understand culture issues by now I believe they are running out of excuses.
Composite is the material they are dealing with.
The following are the major problems I'm having.

a) For a long period of time now they can not control their CNC machine process, several out of spec- conditions like profile, hole locations and hole diameters, as well as NDT inspection findings (porosity, delamination) etc-. This condition has been going on for several months now.
I visited this supplier last June and they told me that the process are still under development and that they working on it. I requested documentation on the action plans with no luck.

b) I insisted that whatever they are doing it needs to be documented and a Root Cause be initiated together with a Corrective Action, they keep writing Root Cause under investigation which is not acceptable.

c) I also insisted that QA needs to get more involved in monitoring these processes and keep a SPC run chart to control their Key Characteristics, also with no luck because their processes is still under development.

d) They did not complete and or not finish as of today an FAI per the AS9102 Std- which is contractual for them. An FAI with features out of control is not acceptable. Same excuse processes still under development.

e) In the mean time they are shipping non conforming parts to us under concessions on which we agree to because we are running late on our first assemblies. This represents an extra load for our MRB team.

These issues has been going on for almost a year now with no positive results on the manufacturing processes and or quality improvements.

What will be the correct approach with a supplier under this conditions?

Thanks in advance.

I have to agree with Wes Bucey. You need to send a experienced manufacturing engineer/quality to your supplier. It sounds as if they don't know the basics of CNC, 1st have a home position on the part (usually implied on print)

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Overseas Supplier Troubles

I have to agree with Wes Bucey. You need to send a experienced manufacturing engineer/quality to your supplier. It sounds as if they don't know the basics of CNC, 1st have a home position on the part (usually implied on print)

If the OP is stuck with the supplier, and it sounds like that's the case, they should be sending someone over there who knows what he's looking at. One possibility that hasn't been mentioned, however, is that perhaps the design is the problem. I've seen a lot of cases of suppliers being blamed for lousy designs.