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Process Map Format and Content - Correct or Incorrect
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  Post Number #1  
Old 12th February 2008, 11:32 AM
svance

 
 
Total Posts: 11
Question Process Map Format and Content - Correct or Incorrect

After attending internal auditor class we realized that our exisitng process map was based on the diagram in the front of the TS16949 Specification and any real thought process had not been applied. We are in the stage now of redefining processes and would like your opinions of our new process map.
Attached Files: 1. Scan for viruses before opening, 2. Please report any 'bad' files by Reporting this post, 3. Use at your Own Risk.
File Type: doc New 51D00012 format option 2 .doc (54.0 KB, 492 views)

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  Post Number #2  
Old 12th February 2008, 12:35 PM
QAMMAN's Avatar
QAMMAN

 
 
Total Posts: 32
Re: Process Map - Correct or Incorrect

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by svance View Post

After attending internal auditor class we realized that our exisitng process map was based on the diagram in the front of the TS16949 Specification and any real thought process had not been applied. We are in the stage now of redefining processes and would like your opinions of our new process map.
Hi Svance, I see that the thread you started has been viewed 14 times without any comments. I am sure the experts will get to you soon and will have good advice for you.

I am not an auditor but am a quality manager at a small manufacturing facility in Detroit. I thought it was funny when I saw your process map because I noticed the focus that must have been put on you at your audit training for COP's MOP's and SOP's. There has been many discussion threads about the over exageration placed on these terms at audit training.

It is my belief that a process map should show these processes (mops, cops, sops) and there interaction throughout the manufacturing process and support processes. Process maps should be easy to follow and show the controls over these processes.

I have attached the 2 process maps that I use in my quality manual for your review. One is a depiction of the interaction of processes, and the other is a depiction of the product realization (manufacturing) process.

I look forward to any comments or suggestions that the experts may have for us here.

Good luck to you in the development of your QMS.

Rich G.
Attached Files: 1. Scan for viruses before opening, 2. Please report any 'bad' files by Reporting this post, 3. Use at your Own Risk.
File Type: xls Page-7 Interaction of Processes.xls (156.5 KB, 1030 views)
File Type: xls Page-8 Product Realization Flow Chart.xls (99.0 KB, 1294 views)
Thanks to QAMMAN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #3  
Old 12th February 2008, 06:58 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,374
Re: Process Map - Correct or Incorrect

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by QAMMAN View Post

Hi Svance, I see that the thread you started has been viewed 14 times without any comments. I am sure the experts will get to you soon and will have good advice for you.

I am not an auditor but am a quality manager at a small manufacturing facility in Detroit. I thought it was funny when I saw your process map because I noticed the focus that must have been put on you at your audit training for COP's MOP's and SOP's. There has been many discussion threads about the over exageration placed on these terms at audit training.

It is my belief that a process map should show these processes (mops, cops, sops) and there interaction throughout the manufacturing process and support processes. Process maps should be easy to follow and show the controls over these processes.

I have attached the 2 process maps that I use in my quality manual for your review. One is a depiction of the interaction of processes, and the other is a depiction of the product realization (manufacturing) process.

I look forward to any comments or suggestions that the experts may have for us here.

Good luck to you in the development of your QMS.

Rich G.

I have some concerns with "Page 7." It has a bunch of information, but the few boxes that attempt to identify your processes seems to get lost in the clutter. It also does not seem that those few actually address everything you do.

If you just took a piece of paper and drew a line of boxes, could you show me what your company does?

For example,

SALES -- ENGINEERING -- PURCHASING -- MANUFACTURING -- SHIPPING.

Would those core processes (COPs) describe your business? Then, what administrative supporting processes do you do to help support those (Training, Management, Calibration, etc.)?

I think it serves better to keep the high level simple, and put all the details of documents and records, inputs/outputs, metrics, etc., in the underlying procedures or flowcharts for each process. Much simpler and easier to use. Also, easier to see if you covered all your processes and activities.
Thank You to Helmut Jilling for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #4  
Old 12th February 2008, 07:00 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,374
Re: Process Map - Correct or Incorrect

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by svance View Post

After attending internal auditor class we realized that our exisitng process map was based on the diagram in the front of the TS16949 Specification and any real thought process had not been applied. We are in the stage now of redefining processes and would like your opinions of our new process map.
Please note the same comments I made in post #3. I would apply them to yours as well. It appears you may have gotten lost in the exercise, and not ended up with a clear picture of what happens at your company.
  Post Number #5  
Old 13th February 2008, 10:28 AM
svance

 
 
Total Posts: 11
Re: Process Map - Correct or Incorrect

Just wondering why I have had 104 to view and only 2 to reply. Are those viewing trying to find a solution just as I am or is it that you can not make a judgment call on processes that you have never seen or know.

I am confident of one thing and that is that we are able to call our processes as we see them and really there is no right or wrong way to name your processes as long as you can define, show and explain them to an auditor.

As an internal auditor I just want to make sure that we do not leave ourselves open to receive any non conformances from our 3rd party auditors because internal audits did not recognize a gap in our system.

Thanks for your inputs.
  Post Number #6  
Old 13th February 2008, 10:53 AM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,374
Re: Process Map - Correct or Incorrect

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by svance View Post

Just wondering why I have had 104 to view and only 2 to reply. Are those viewing trying to find a solution just as I am or is it that you can not make a judgment call on processes that you have never seen or know.

I am confident of one thing and that is that we are able to call our processes as we see them and really there is no right or wrong way to name your processes as long as you can define, show and explain them to an auditor.

As an internal auditor I just want to make sure that we do not leave ourselves open to receive any non conformances from our 3rd party auditors because internal audits did not recognize a gap in our system.

Thanks for your inputs.
Can't say for sure, but I think your model would require a lot of discussion, and many times people don't want to tackle that big a review. You might want to refer to my post #3.

You are correct that an organization may select an process "names" they wish. However, it helps if they clearly reprsent the system. I had a lot of difficulty reviewing your diagram. In my opinion, it does not show the processes clearly and easily. Does it cover everything? I don't know. It is difficult to determine.

At a minimum, it must address all the activities, and show the sequences and the interactions (inputs/outputs) between processes. How you do that, is up to you.

However, the primary focus of a well implemented process approach is to benefit the company. Avoiding nonconformances should be a secondary goal. Whether you choose to agree with my views is of course up to you. However, the absence of replies might reinforce that viewpoint. Best wishes with whatever you decide, however.
Thanks to Helmut Jilling for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #7  
Old 13th February 2008, 11:00 AM
Valeri's Avatar
Valeri

 
 
Total Posts: 269
Re: Process Map - Correct or Incorrect

I agree with Helmut, way too much detail - keep it simple.

If I were auditing svance post #1, I would not know where to begin. The "process inputs" themselves, IMO, need inputs/outputs defined. Are the outputs listed for the COP process (product realization)?. Management review by itself has TS mandated inputs & outputs. If this is to be a high level overview, I'm still confused.

Again, this is just my opinion.
  Post Number #8  
Old 13th February 2008, 11:11 AM
QAMMAN's Avatar
QAMMAN

 
 
Total Posts: 32
Re: Process Map - Correct or Incorrect

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by svance View Post

Just wondering why I have had 104 to view and only 2 to reply. Are those viewing trying to find a solution just as I am or is it that you can not make a judgment call on processes that you have never seen or know.

I am confident of one thing and that is that we are able to call our processes as we see them and really there is no right or wrong way to name your processes as long as you can define, show and explain them to an auditor.

As an internal auditor I just want to make sure that we do not leave ourselves open to receive any non conformances from our 3rd party auditors because internal audits did not recognize a gap in our system.

Thanks for your inputs.
Hi Svance,

When it comes to this type of discussion people are afraid to show their documents for 2 reasons. One is that they are considered proprietary and two they are afraid of criticism.

I on the other hand am happy to share my work with those who can use it and am happy to hear the criticism. I respect Helmut Jilling's opinion since we have been involved in other discussion topics. I will certainly think hard on what he has said and decide how and if I want to apply his suggestions.

My auditors like my flow charts and I have been complimented on them but that means nothing. If there is room for improvement I am willing to make the improvements. This is "my" quality system not my auditors.

Hang tight, this is a good topic of conversation and you will be getting plenty of opinions here.

Rich G.

One last point: I am of the opinion that unless you are a certified TS auditor you should not be performing internal audits. I took a one week auditors class and when it was said and done I did not feel I was qualified to perform a good audit. I source my internal audits to a 3rd party "certified" Ts auditor. That way I am not sugar coating any areas that I might be prejudiced about. It has been our experiance that if we pay to have our own people trained in auditing they come away with out the skills required and they quit shortly after. So we prefer to spend the money on more effective audits.

Last edited by QAMMAN; 13th February 2008 at 11:43 AM.
Thank You to QAMMAN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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