Guidance on using Turtle Diagrams for Internal Audits (main & sub processes)

[annelien]

Hi

seesing as i am still trying to master the art of internal audits, i need some advice.

my processes are divided into quite a few sub processes. the question is do i audit rather all the sub processes or just the whole process?

since my last audit, we decided to change to process audit using the turtle diagrams.
i am really a beginner with iso9001:20000, learned mostly from the net, and just can't seem to get my mind straight on how to conduct audits using turtle diagrams, any suggestions?

 

[AndyN]

Hi

seesing as i am still trying to master the art of internal audits, i need some advice.

my processes are divided into quite a few sub processes. the question is do i audit rather all the sub processes or just the whole process?

since my last audit, we decided to change to process audit using the turtle diagrams.
i am really a beginner with iso9001:20000, learned mostly from the net, and just can't seem to get my mind straight on how to conduct audits using turtle diagrams, any suggestions?

Which process or sub-process to audit should be defined in the 'scope' of the internal audit - whomever is scheduling you audits should define that for you. If you are defining the scope, then you can decide what to audit - based on 'status and importance' of the process......

You will continue to struggle if you are learning how to audit by picking it up off the net. You will never, ever (IMHO) get a good understanding unless you attend some instructor led training session - which could be done over the net if travel is an issue, but just reading posts etc will not get you the understanding you need to be an effective auditor.

 

[joshua_sx1]

Practice makes perfect, as they say… but since nobody is perfect, so why practice then?

He he he… just kidding… practice more not to become perfect but to master the art of auditing…

…I’m not familiar with the turtle diagrams used in auditing, but I believe it is the combination of procedure and process audits (as denotes by its diagram)…

...anyway, as for the question whether you are going to audit a sub-process or the whole process? AndyN is right… it should be defined in your audit scope, which is approved by the top management, and known by the auditee…

 

[db]

Hi

seesing as i am still trying to master the art of internal audits, i need some advice.

my processes are divided into quite a few sub processes. the question is do i audit rather all the sub processes or just the whole process?

since my last audit, we decided to change to process audit using the turtle diagrams.
i am really a beginner with iso9001:20000, learned mostly from the net, and just can't seem to get my mind straight on how to conduct audits using turtle diagrams, any suggestions?

First of all, Welcome!!!!!!

As Andy pointed out, the scope of the audit will define what you are going to be auditing. However, the question of how far down to audit should be based on several factors. The complexity of the processes (and sub-processes), the significance of the processes, the risks involved, and past performance are all factors to be considered. There are times when I might just audit to the main process. There are times, I might want to dig deeper into the sub-processes. Don’t think you have to only audit the processes only, or audit all of the sub-processes in great detail.

What you need to do is develop a balance. You want the audits to be credible and useful. They need to go into enough detail to allow confidence in process performance. That might mean you have to dig really deep, or maybe just skim the surface. With time, and experience you might find yourself digging deeper to find potential continual improvement opportunities of the process.

Hope that helps.

 

[Raffy]

hi annelien,
Using turtle diagrams in your process audit, will be more beneficial since you will easily understand what are the input, outputs of the process, key performance indicators (KPI), can be easily noted into the turtle diagram.
raffy

 

[AndyN]

Hi

seesing as i am still trying to master the art of internal audits, i need some advice.

my processes are divided into quite a few sub processes. the question is do i audit rather all the sub processes or just the whole process?

since my last audit, we decided to change to process audit using the turtle diagrams.
i am really a beginner with iso9001:20000, learned mostly from the net, and just can't seem to get my mind straight on how to conduct audits using turtle diagrams, any suggestions?

After re-reading your original post, I feel you'd be a lot better off if you found some hands on training, since you are new to the standard and to process auditing. You're not going to get the kind of help you need from simply the answers here. Auditing is a new skill set for most people. It takes exposure to concepts and tools as well as practice.

 

[ARNAY]

A turtle diagram is very usefull.I dont know what you have,but please do not duplicate.Your turtle diagram is a basic tool to audit your processes and procedures.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

After re-reading your original post, I feel you'd be a lot better off if you found some hands on training, since you are new to the standard and to process auditing. You're not going to get the kind of help you need from simply the answers here. Auditing is a new skill set for most people. It takes exposure to concepts and tools as well as practice.

I would agree with AndyN's advice. There is training provided by a number of consultants here on Elsmar. A cursory search will find some useful trainers. The quality of training, and whether it focuses on process approach, is very important.

For now, if you want a little free help, you might want to download and review a free white paper I wrote - it is available for free download on my website - www.Jilling.com click on the TOOLS tab....find the entry for Process approach internal audits....that is a good overview, but as AndyN said, training would be advisable.

 

[supreecha]

Turtle Diagram

 

[JaneB]

I second (or third or whatever) the advice to get some good training first.

You cannot learn to audit from 'the net', no matter what anyone tells you. I'd like to see someone (for example) become a competent electrician, or medical specialist or nurse by 'researching on the net'. Now, I am not suggesting that an internal auditor is a comparable role.. just trying to illustrate how some things cannot be done.

And trying to use a 'turtle diagram' to learn to audit? No and no and no again. I'm sorry - this may not appear to be very helpful advice you're getting from various people about training, but it's actually very sound and good advice.