The Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums
Interaction of Processes IOP NCR
Please read this thread...
Software update
Interaction of Processes IOP NCR
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > >
Forum Username

Elsmar Cove Forum Visitor Notice(s)

Wooden Line

Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Courtesy Quick Links


Links Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in the quest for knowledge and support:

Jennifer Kirley's
Conway Business Services


Howard's
International Quality Services


Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting, and
Medical Devices Expert Forum


Bob Doering
Bob Doering's Blogs and,
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


Ajit Basrur
Claritas Consulting, LLC



International Standards Bodies - World Wide Standards Bodies

AIAG - Automotive Industry Action Group

ASQ - American Society for Quality

International Organization for Standardization - ISO Standards and Information

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology


Some Related Topic Tags
as9100 - aerospace quality management systems, as9100 revision d (2016), interaction of processes (see process interactions), process interactions
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  Post Number #1  
Old 18th June 2018, 11:04 AM
QAguygoqa

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Please Help! Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

Hello QA Pros,
AS9100D requirement 4.4 requires an org to "shall" determine the processes needed for the quality management system and their application throughout the organization....etc..

We identified our company process needed for our QMS as follows : Engineering, Purchasing, Sales, Shipping, Receiving, Quality, Production.

We have supporting processes such as Mgmt Review, CAR, Maintenance, Audits, etc.

The auditor issued to us an NCR claiming that we don't have metrics for maintenance. We stated that maintenance is a supporting process. The auditor states that the IAQG standard clause 4.4.1C requires this info. We stated that we are responsible to meet AS9100D requirements and not IAQG clause requirements.
Let me know what is your point of view. Who is correct?

NOTE: I am submitting our IOP for your kind review. Thank you.
Attached Files: 1. Scan for viruses before opening, 2. Please report any 'bad' files by Reporting this post, 3. Use at your Own Risk.
File Type: docx MMP Interaction of Processes.docx (34.7 KB, 85 views)

Sponsored Links
  Post Number #2  
Old 18th June 2018, 11:10 AM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,040
Let Me Help You Re: Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by QAguygoqa View Post

Hello QA Pros,
AS9100D requirement 4.4 requires an org to "shall" determine the processes needed for the quality management system and their application throughout the organization....etc..

We identified our company process needed for our QMS as follows : Engineering, Purchasing, Sales, Shipping, Receiving, Quality, Production.

We have supporting processes such as Mgmt Review, CAR, Maintenance, Audits, etc.

The auditor issued to us an NCR claiming that we don't have metrics for maintenance. We stated that maintenance is a supporting process. The auditor states that the IAQG standard clause 4.4.1C requires this info. We stated that we are responsible to meet AS9100D requirements and not IAQG clause requirements.
Let me know what is your point of view. Who is correct?

NOTE: I am submitting our IOP for your kind review. Thank you.
Which IAQG document? Check your CB agreement, but unless you signed up for something other than AS9100D, your auditor is off scope...
Thank You to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #3  
Old 18th June 2018, 11:21 AM
QAguygoqa

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

Hello Andy,
I have never seen this IAQG document, nor have I ever signed it. The registrar's home office states it is and IAQG document with a requirement 4.4.1c. I have never seen or been informed, and my company committed to follow AS9100D requirements. Look, I wouldn't mind addressing a corrective action if the finding was something we can reference to begin containment and corrective action. However, without a requirement to follow, my argument is how do I start a corrective action? I resent my registrar not being open to admit their incorrect.
  Post Number #4  
Old 18th June 2018, 11:28 AM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,040
Let Me Help You Re: Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by QAguygoqa View Post

Hello Andy,
I have never seen this IAQG document, nor have I ever signed it. The registrar's home office states it is and IAQG document with a requirement 4.4.1c. I have never seen or been informed, and my company committed to follow AS9100D requirements. Look, I wouldn't mind addressing a corrective action if the finding was something we can reference to begin containment and corrective action. However, without a requirement to follow, my argument is how do I start a corrective action? I resent my registrar not being open to admit their incorrect.
All I see is the ISO 9001:2015 based requirements for the things listed in (c). I see no need for metrics, just to ensure the process is effective and controlled. Maintenance - if you draw a parallel with your car maintenance - is required to be performed at certain intervals. I see zero (stated) need for metrics. The oil & filter (for example) are either changed (close to) the stated interval or not. Records will show that. The performance of the equipment will show that (eventually). Sounds like auditor "mission creep"...
Thanks to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #5  
Old 18th June 2018, 03:53 PM
RCW's Avatar
RCW

 
 
Total Posts: 481
Re: Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

QAguygoqa:

If this was an AS9100 audit, the information from the audit is loaded into the IAQG OASIS database which you should have access to. (If you don't then you need to get access to this immediately!) Once you log in, pull up your audit form under Manage Audits. When you open up the audit form, click on the form 4 and open up the NCR you received from this finding. Right at the top of Section 1 - Nonconformity Details it should state which AQMS the NCR is being written against and the applicable clause.

Just curious what this NCR was actually written against.

(If you need help finding the above, send me a private message.)

Last edited by RCW; 18th June 2018 at 03:54 PM. Reason: typo
Thanks to RCW for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #6  
Old 19th June 2018, 08:23 AM
QAguygoqa

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

RCW, thank you for your kind reply. I'll check form 4 in the IAQG OASIS database. I'll get in touch with you, really appreciated.
  Post Number #7  
Old 19th June 2018, 02:41 PM
Roberticus's Avatar
Roberticus

 
 
Total Posts: 76
Re: Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN View Post

All I see is the ISO 9001:2015 based requirements for the things listed in (c). I see no need for metrics, just to ensure the process is effective and controlled. Maintenance - if you draw a parallel with your car maintenance - is required to be performed at certain intervals. I see zero (stated) need for metrics. The oil & filter (for example) are either changed (close to) the stated interval or not. Records will show that. The performance of the equipment will show that (eventually). Sounds like auditor "mission creep"...
Well, I have to disagree a bit, the clause calls for

"shall determine and apply the criteria and methods (including monitoring, measurements and related performance indicators) needed to ensure the effective operation and controll of these processes;"

So, we have to have criteria (goals), and a method (defined way to consistently do it), to ensure effective (how can this be determined without a goal/criteria?) control (we know if our outputs are stable and meet requirements).

The "control" portion compels us to have some way of knowing how well we're doing, we can't just file the oil change records and only go evaluate them if there's a crisis, or after the car breaks down.
  • Even if all that matters is if the oil change is close to the interval or not, how close is close enough, how often are we close enough, why does it matter if we're close enough?

Even if it's a "support" process, it's important enough to need to "establish, implement, maintain, and continually improve" it per 4.4.1, as it will affect the outcome of your core processes. Whether or not it's called a "metric" in your firm, think of the way that Maintenance affects your operations, look for measures which are already in place and make business sense, track them and take action if things go south, and track whether planned investments/ improvements deliver as planned!

Thanks to Roberticus for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #8  
Old 19th June 2018, 04:11 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,040
Let Me Help You Re: Interaction of Processes IOP NCR

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Roberticus View Post

Well, I have to disagree a bit, the clause calls for

"shall determine and apply the criteria and methods (including monitoring, measurements and related performance indicators) needed to ensure the effective operation and controll of these processes;"

So, we have to have criteria (goals), and a method (defined way to consistently do it), to ensure effective (how can this be determined without a goal/criteria?) control (we know if our outputs are stable and meet requirements).

The "control" portion compels us to have some way of knowing how well we're doing, we can't just file the oil change records and only go evaluate them if there's a crisis, or after the car breaks down.
  • Even if all that matters is if the oil change is close to the interval or not, how close is close enough, how often are we close enough, why does it matter if we're close enough?

Even if it's a "support" process, it's important enough to need to "establish, implement, maintain, and continually improve" it per 4.4.1, as it will affect the outcome of your core processes. Whether or not it's called a "metric" in your firm, think of the way that Maintenance affects your operations, look for measures which are already in place and make business sense, track them and take action if things go south, and track whether planned investments/ improvements deliver as planned!

Criteria are not goals. If they meant goals, the TC would have used that word! Criteria are related to what's acceptable/unacceptable. In the example, the goal is to have a reliable/available vehicle. The criteria are things like the weight of the oil (10W40) and the specification of filter etc. Feel free to disagree, however, when you overload a business with objectives and measurements which aren't required to be effective, is when management decide that doing "ISO" is a waste of time...

Trust me, the auditor is reading too much into this requirement.
Thank You to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > >

Bookmarks



Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Emoticons are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Processes Interaction: Criteria and Methods jeddex ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4 12th August 2010 05:35 AM
Explanation of Sequence and Interaction of Processes MaryJames ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6 2nd April 2007 06:09 AM
Interaction between processes Andrew Adam ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3 27th July 2005 03:51 PM
TS 16949 Clause 4.2.2 c - Interaction of Processes - What does this mean? Lyndon Diong IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 184 25th May 2003 09:40 AM
4.2.2c - Description of the interaction between the processes of the QMS donnammurphy ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4 5th March 2001 03:55 PM



The time now is 09:16 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



Misc. Internal Links


NOTE: This forum uses "Cookies"