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Records are a special type of document - Can anyone clarify this statement? 4.2.3

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4.2.3 - control of documents, records (evidence) and records control
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  Post Number #1  
Old 24th August 2005, 02:23 AM
vinaynin

 
 
Total Posts: 8
Let Me Help You Records are a special type of document - Can anyone clarify this statement? 4.2.3

please refer 4.2.3 - Records are a special type of document and shall be controlled according to the requirements given in 4.2.4

can any one clarify regarding above- which type of Records should considered as documents and how it will controlled as per 4.2.4 (Control of Records)

Vinay

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  Post Number #2  
Old 24th August 2005, 07:13 AM
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Randy

 
 
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Technically all records are documents, but they have a specific difference. You can review and revise documents, but you don't revise records. Documents (procedures, instructions, etc.) are essentially living things subject to change but records provide information of historical nature or past occurances, conditions, events, etc.

You need to controls records in a manner that they can be accessed and protected from damage or loss. Refer to ISO 9004 to help give you more guidance.
Thanks to Randy for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #3  
Old 24th August 2005, 08:06 AM
tarheels4 - 2007

 
 
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Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Randy

Technically all records are documents, but they have a specific difference. You can review and revise documents, but you don't revise records. Documents (procedures, instructions, etc.) are essentially living things subject to change but records provide information of historical nature or past occurances, conditions, events, etc.
I am not trying to be nit picky here Randy but what you said is a bit confusing. It sounds like what you are saying above is. Records are documents and you review and revise documents but you cannot revise records even though they are documents which are to be reviewed and revised.

Why not just keep it simple. Forms are a form of document, which when filled in become a record of an activity.
  Post Number #4  
Old 24th August 2005, 08:50 AM
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ddunn

 
 
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"Why not just keep it simple. Forms are a form of document, which when filled in become a record of an activity."

I believe the primary point that Randy was making is that records cannot be revised. Once a form is filled in and becomes a record it cannot change.

Forms (blank), procedures, instructions, checklists (again blank) can be revised.
  Post Number #5  
Old 24th August 2005, 09:11 AM
tarheels4 - 2007

 
 
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Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by ddunn

I believe the primary point that Randy was making is that records cannot be revised. Once a form is filled in and becomes a record it cannot change.
If this is the point that Randy is making I disagree with the point. I hope you will agree that typically environmental aspects and impacts are recorded on a form (document). The form then becomes a record. In order to maintain this record of aspects it needs to be reviewed form time to time and revised if there is changes in processes of the organization which would require modifications or revision to the aspects list/record.

So I guess a record can be changed.
  Post Number #6  
Old 24th August 2005, 09:18 AM
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Cari Spears

 
 
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Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by tarheels4

If this is the point that Randy is making I disagree with the point. I hope you will agree that typically environmental aspects and impacts are recorded on a form (document). The form then becomes a record. In order to maintain this record of aspects it needs to be reviewed form time to time and revised if there is changes in processes of the organization which would require modifications or revision to the aspects list/record.

So I guess a record can be changed.
But you are not altering previously recorded environmental readings, you are simply adding the next reading. Records are documented evidence of actual occurances and should not be changed. Just because you add to a form as the environment changes - or more parts are inspected - or whatever the case - Randy's statement is correct.
  Post Number #7  
Old 24th August 2005, 09:31 AM
tarheels4 - 2007

 
 
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Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Cari Spears

But you are not altering previously recorded environmental readings, you are simply adding the next reading. Records are documented evidence of actual occurances and should not be changed. Just because you add to a form as the environment changes - or more parts are inspected - or whatever the case - Randy's statement is correct.
Yes Ma'am
  Post Number #8  
Old 24th August 2005, 10:56 AM
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Wes Bucey

 
 
Total Posts: 11,166
Randy briefly touched on the main point - a record is a HISTORY of an activity. As such, it should NOT be changed. It may be added to (a running tally of production for instance), but the previously entered data may not be altered.

I normally explain the distinction between "modifiable" documents and "unmodifiable" documents by saying:
  1. Modifiable documents are plans or instructions, which may change as circumstances change
  2. Unmodifiable documents (records) are history of events. Thus, correspondence between customer and supplier is normally considered a "record" since you can't erase what has been said or written. You can ADD to a record (to explain a previous error?), but it is taboo to change it as if it never happened. (A history of "changes" to a modifiable document is also a record.)
A special case needs to be made for RETENTION of records. Each organization should have a policy and procedure in place to set an original retention period for each type of record and then to review the record at the end of the initial retention period to determine
  • if the retention should be extended
  • or if the record should be relocated to an archive
  • or if the record may be destroyed.
I hope this helps clarify the matter. If not, come back.
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