In-House Trainings by CB (Certification Body)

[Joy]

I am little confused about requirements, a CB needs to fulfill if it conducts in-house training for a potential client or certify it in next two years.

Earlier,I was considering that CB shall not conduct any in-house training and go for certification within two years or atleast the trainer shall not be in audit team if audit is conducted within two years.That was very safe thinking.

After ISO 17021 came into force I was told that a CB can conduct aerospace related in-house course and the same trainer can go for audit within two years.Only requirement-the training programme shall be general in nature.

1.Is there no need to declare conflict of interest in such cases?If it is in-house course and all participants are from same organisation can the trainer maintain generic nature of the course?
2.Is there no need to take prior permission from accredition body and RMC if any accredited CB is conduting in-house course for potential client?

3.Can the trainer go for audit within next two years if he/she is involved in in-house trainings on aerospace related subjects?

 

[Marc]

Re: In-House Trainings by CB

Does anyone have any thoughts on this one?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: In-House Trainings by CB

That is covered under ISO 17021:2006. CB's can not be involved with consultancy services for the organizations they certify. So, the next question is: what constitutes management system consultancy? The definition in the 17021 document is:

3.3 management system consultancy

participation in designing, implementing or maintaining a management system​

EXAMPLES are:
a) preparing or producing manuals or procedures, and
b) giving specific advice, instructions or solutions towards the development and implementation of a management system.​

NOTE Arranging training and participating as a trainer is not considered consultancy, provided that, where the course relates to management systems or auditing, it is confined to the provision of generic information that is freely available in the public domain; i.e. the trainer should not provide company-specific solutions.​

 

[Colin]

Re: In-House Trainings by CB

I can't speak specifically about aerospace but when I worked for a CB I was never allowed on the audit team if I had delivered in-house training for a client - and that goes back over 10 years.

 

[robfenn]

Re: In-House Trainings by CB

Training and consultancy are two different things. As said in 17021, the key is company specific solutions are not allowed. However, they can point out to external examples. As long as the CB keeps within the rules, it is fine.

 

[AndyN]

Re: In-House Trainings by CB

Training and consultancy are two different things. As said in 17021, the key is company specific solutions are not allowed. However, they can point out to external examples. As long as the CB keeps within the rules, it is fine.

I'd rather doubt the effectiveness of the training, in that case! Having run many, many training courses, one point that always stood out was the ability of the instructor to give concrete examples related to the point in case. Similarly, attendees often struggled when, say, conducting a case study of a business where they weren't familiar with the industry etc.

 

[robfenn]

Re: In-House Trainings by CB

Andy, i think you are totally right.

This is where the rules don't actually end up best for the end user, which is very frustrating.

Many of our clients do not use consultants or training and still successfully implement the standard however. In fact, by taking on more responsibility, they gain a better understanding and increased motivation. Undoubtedly harder work though!