PPAP and the IMDS (International Material Data System)

S

silentrunning

I usually refuse to do any automotive work. It's just not worth the hastle. I won't even do lower tier vendor work. In a moment of weakness I agreed to take a spring job for a tier 1 supplier which includes a Level 4 PPAP. (Not a problem). When the purchase order arrived it included notes that the PPAP must go to the IMDS (International Material Data System).

Can anyone tell me what this involves? Is this an organization that you have to be a member of?

Thanks for any help,
Doug
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Leader
Super Moderator
Re: PPAP - What did I get myself into?

did a google and came up with this:

The IMDS is the automotive industry material data system. It is a joint development of Audi, BMW, DaimlerChrysler, Ford, Opel, Porsche, VW and the Swedish firm Volvo. Further manufacturers have meanwhile joined the community and talks are being held with others regarding their participation in IMDS.
In the IMDS, all materials used for car manufacture are archived and maintained. Only in this way is it possible to meet the obligations placed on car manufacturers, and thus on their suppliers, by national and international standards, laws and regulations.

http://www.mdsystem.com/index.jsp

no experience with it, just googled.
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
Re: PPAP - What did I get myself into?

I usually refuse to do any automotive work. It's just not worth the hastle. I won't even do lower tier vendor work. In a moment of weakness I agreed to take a spring job for a tier 1 supplier which includes a Level 4 PPAP. (Not a problem). When the purchase order arrived it included notes that the PPAP must go to the IMDS (International Material Data System).

Can anyone tell me what this involves? Is this an organization that you have to be a member of?

Thanks for any help,
Doug

Hello Doug,

Don't spoil your 4th of July celebration.....

PPAP 4th Edition, Par 2.2.1.1 states that: The organization shall provide evidence that the Material/Substance Composition reporting that is required by the customer has been completed for the part and that the reported data complies with all customer-specific requirements.
NOTE: This materials reporting may be entered into the IMDS (International Materials Data System) or other customer-specified system/method. IMDS is available through http://www.mdsystem.com/index.jsp.


Your PPAP does not have to go there, only the material reporting. Find out from your Customer exactly what their reporting expectations are....

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Re: PPAP - What did I get myself into?

My understanding is the primary purpose is to create an accessible record of the materials used in components so downstream folks can check for carcinogens, toxins, etc. when working with, scrapping, or recycling the material in the future. Probably, the data would also include strength of materials, complete material analysis, etc.

I haven't participated, but it seems like a great idea and I know the organization MUST REGISTER (FREE) before it can enter data (traceability, anyone?)

I can think of several components I've made or used over the years which are NOW known to be potentially harmful to folks working with them (beryllium copper and cadmium plating spring immediately to mind.) It would be good for folks to have a source to learn about the materials long after the original maker goes out of business or destroys its records.
 
S

silentrunning

Re: PPAP and the IMDS (International Material Data System) - What did I get myself in

Thanks all. I guess my auto manufacturer phobia kicked in here. This actually doesn't sound all that painful. (I hope) :rolleyes:
 
M

MurphTN

Re: PPAP and the IMDS (International Material Data System) - What did I get myself in

Actually, with regards to being painful; my organization is concerned about the implications of the registration. From what we've surmised, it makes you as the supplier liable for an indefinite period of time if the materials used are found to be hazardous long after manufacturing.

The note from Wes on July 3rd stated that in the past he used Beryllium Copper. If we understand the IMDS registration correctly, it implies that if he had signed the IMDS back then he would now be liable for every part he ever made. Does anyone have any info on this. We have been reticent to sign up because of these implications but we might be misunderstanding this.

Thanks.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Re: PPAP and the IMDS (International Material Data System) - What did I get myself in

Actually, with regards to being painful; my organization is concerned about the implications of the registration. From what we've surmised, it makes you as the supplier liable for an indefinite period of time if the materials used are found to be hazardous long after manufacturing.

The note from Wes on July 3rd stated that in the past he used Beryllium Copper. If we understand the IMDS registration correctly, it implies that if he had signed the IMDS back then he would now be liable for every part he ever made. Does anyone have any info on this. We have been reticent to sign up because of these implications but we might be misunderstanding this.

Thanks.
I don't understand it as "liability" for damage down the road. The point is that of accessible data and traceability for users who come later in the supply chain. I'd be interested if anyone has a citation from a credible law firm or from a "court of competent jurisdiction" describing liability once an organization has truthfully disclosed the material analysis via IMDS. I see it as the kind of warning printed on ladders: "do not overload" "do not stand on top step" "do not use near electric power lines" etc. etc.

I see it as removing liability which might accrue for UNDISCLOSED materials which later are found to be dangerous. Kind of like the alerts I see on food packaging: "this product processed on equipment which also processes peanuts" - eliminates a victim of peanut allergy from saying, "you never told me there could be peanuts in this cookie"

I'm looking forward to a researched response about future liability with citations versus wild guesses.
 

Kimmy

Involved In Discussions
Re: PPAP and the IMDS (International Material Data System) - What did I get myself in

Hi Doug,

We are a spring company, primarily for the automotive industry. I have been responsible for IMDS submissions since its inception. I found it very difficult to learn. I would say it took some weeks, if not months before I felt comfortable using it, even with the online training. I enjoy using it now however, since I am familiar with it.

The biggest problem I found was that you must have some knowledge of chemistry and metallurgy to use it correctly. You can not depend on MSDS's for all of your information. MSDS's only have to list the hazardous ingredients (per OSHA requirements) while IMDS requires disclosure of all ingredients, whether it is hazardous or not. Another example of when a MSDS doesn't work - the customer says their part cannot contain hexavalent chrome but words hexavalent chrome rarely shows up on an MSDS. The terms you will find on the MSDS: chromium oxide, zinc chromate, chromic acid and many others all contain hexavalent chrome.

If you only have one part to enter, I would suggest you try to find an outside source to enter it.

Kim
 

Manix

Get Involved!!!
Trusted Information Resource
Re: PPAP and the IMDS (International Material Data System) - What did I get myself in

Hi All,

Being an Automotive Tier one I would say we are fairly experienced with IMDS. So to clarify:

1. IMDS is a huge database that most automotive OEMs prescribe to and use in order that they fulfill their obligations with regards to the ELV directive.

2. The ELV directive is an EU directive that prohibits the use of certain chemical elements. These are Lead, Hex Chromium, Mercury and Cadmium. It also sets targets for vehicle manufacturers in terms of the % of their vehicles that must be recycled. So IMDS facilitates for the identification of material that can be recycled and hence can be used by the OEM in their calculations. IMDS does actually go further and use a list called the GADSL (Global Automotive Declarable Substance List) identifying many substances that are of concern and should be eliminated or just reported. Each individual OEM has different requirements for the substances on this list so check with your customer.

3. The IMDS can be used by the whole supply chain, so your sub-suppliers can submit data to you, you can then use this data to make submissions to your customer, eliminating the need for duplicating information.

4. The basic premise of any submission, is to include all parts, all components within those parts, all materials within the components and all Basic Substances within those materials. Giving you a huge tree of information.

Back to the original post, I would say a spring is actually fairly easy. You have the base material (Steel?....) and it's composition. Then you would have the surface treatment and it's composition.

I see no liability from reporting your materials in IMDS, it is an "Information Resource", used by the supply chain to review and report material data for the reasons I have mentioned above.

As already mentioned, you don't submit PPAP to IMDS, but your IMDS submission is part of the PPAP procedure if cited by your customer. If you use the latest PSW (4th ed), you'll see there is a section where you declare IMDS compliance.

Just wanted to clarify things a bit but if you are more confused than ever, let me know and I will clarify any point in question.
 
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