ISO 9001 Certification for a Big Government Entity - One Certificate for each Dept.?

F

firasali

A big government entity here in the Middle East is under the process for preparation to be certified against the ISO 9001:2008 standard,,, however, and due to the culture in such entities, they have decided to go for certification departmental wise, i.e. each department will go for certification separately!:nope::bonk::frust:

The departments are of both types: support departments (IT, Finance, HR, Security), and core departments which are looking for the operations of the entity.

Having said so, I have some inquiries and points of discussions that I want to share with you guys:

1) The customers of the support departments will be mainly the other departments of the entity (internal customers) - any suggestions or hints on how to deal with this? They have already initiated customer satisfaction survey results for these (internal) customers to measure the satisfaction

2) What about HR responsibilities,,,, are they going to be considered as outsourced processes for all the departments (except may be for HR)? How can they deal with this,,,,, Same would apply on purchasing and Preservation of Product activities, and may be the Data Analysis part as it is being handled by one department.:nopity:

3) Quality objectives - I think this is the least tricky part, they have already determined their KPI's and initiated objectives around them for each dept, any recommendation in that regard?

4) Quality Policy - is it ok to have one quality policy for the whole entity, where we can add (flavors) of each department in that policy? any other suggestions?

5) Quality Manual - same as quality policy,,, can they have one quality manual for the whole entity, of course taking into consideration the ISO requirements for the QM (scope for each department separately, procedures of each department, and the inter-linkage between processes:confused:

6) Is it ok to have one MR for all the departments? and we can have like Assistant MR for each department?

7) Management Review - can they have one management review to include all the departments together?

Sorry for the long wording of my query, and hope to hear your thought :rolleyes::thanx:
 

somashekar

Leader
Admin
Re: ISO 9001 certificates for a big government entity - one certificate for each dept

The certification body will deal with you that way you want it.
Either one mango in every basket or all mangoes in one basket.
Now each basket is an organization and any other are either customer or supplier.
As you go about if you begin to reach out to other basket for every little thing, you will begin to ask yourself, why cannot I have all the mangoes in one basket...
Every department perhaps is also not independent in business sense, meaning though it is a department, you are treating it as an organization in your case ..... :confused:
they have decided to go for certification departmental wise, i.e. each department will go for certification separately!
So so so .... why carry many baskets IF you can carry just one.
Since you say decided the best guide is the CB themselves, and they will be too happy to make some money with you if you want it your way.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
Re: ISO 9001 Certificates for a Big Government Entity - One Certificate for each Dept

A big government entity here in the Middle East is under the process for preparation to be certified against the ISO 9001:2008 standard,,, however, and due to the culture in such entities, they have decided to go for certification departmental wise, i.e. each department will go for certification separately!:nope::bonk::frust:
...SNIP..... Sorry for the long wording of my query, and hope to hear your thought :rolleyes::thanx:
Firasali, welcome to The Cove.

I sincerely hope that the organization you are referring here has a positive outcome but I am ALWAYS weary of "certification segmentation", i.e., a departmental approach to QMS implementation & certification. In my experience, it leads to ineffective and inefficient systems. All of the departments will have to identify what their "product" is and who are their customers. It is very easy to forget the end customer, the one receiving the services from this governmental institution. So, whenever I can, I would STRONGLY ADVISE against it. It might take longer, be more painful, but it would be sustainable in the long run. Departmental approach to certification, in my experience, tends to lead to more money to consultants and certification bodies, more press releases, more award ceremonies, etc....but less substance. A waste of money and effort.

Nevertheless, I would STRONGLY encourage you to familiarize yourself with the ISO IWA 4:2009 - Quality management systems -- Guidelines for the application of ISO 9001:2008 in local government document. In my opinion the document abstract alludes to the need to have a holistic approach to a system implementation. It reads:
For a local government to be considered reliable, it should guarantee minimum conditions of reliability for the processes that are necessary to provide all the services needed by its citizens in a consistent and reliable manner. All the local government's processes, including management, core, operational and support processes, should constitute a single, integral, quality management system. The integral character of this system is important because, otherwise, although a local government could be reliable in some areas of activity, it may be unreliable in others. For a government to be considered reliable, it should guarantee minimum conditions of reliability for all key processes and services. To achieve this, it is advisable that the local government clearly identify the management, core and support processes that, together, make it reliable (see Annex A). Annex B provides a diagnostic tool for local governments to evaluate the scope and maturity of their processes and services.

Good luck to you.
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S

samsung

Re: ISO 9001 certificates for a big government entity - one certificate for each dept

I don't think they all can share a common policy & a manual in particular since they all have different products, activities, inputs, objectives & systems to manage, they should have different policies and manual as well (IMO).
 
C

Chris_Anderson

Re: ISO 9001 Certification for a Big Government Entity - One Certificate for each Dep

A big government entity here in the Middle East is under the process for preparation to be certified against the ISO 9001:2008 standard,,, however, and due to the culture in such entities, they have decided to go for certification departmental wise, i.e. each department will go for certification separately!:nope::bonk::frust:

The departments are of both types: support departments (IT, Finance, HR, Security), and core departments which are looking for the operations of the entity.

Having said so, I have some inquiries and points of discussions that I want to share with you guys:

1) The customers of the support departments will be mainly the other departments of the entity (internal customers) - any suggestions or hints on how to deal with this? They have already initiated customer satisfaction survey results for these (internal) customers to measure the satisfaction

2) What about HR responsibilities,,,, are they going to be considered as outsourced processes for all the departments (except may be for HR)? How can they deal with this,,,,, Same would apply on purchasing and Preservation of Product activities, and may be the Data Analysis part as it is being handled by one department.:nopity:

3) Quality objectives - I think this is the least tricky part, they have already determined their KPI's and initiated objectives around them for each dept, any recommendation in that regard?

4) Quality Policy - is it ok to have one quality policy for the whole entity, where we can add (flavors) of each department in that policy? any other suggestions?

5) Quality Manual - same as quality policy,,, can they have one quality manual for the whole entity, of course taking into consideration the ISO requirements for the QM (scope for each department separately, procedures of each department, and the inter-linkage between processes:confused:

6) Is it ok to have one MR for all the departments? and we can have like Assistant MR for each department?

7) Management Review - can they have one management review to include all the departments together?

Sorry for the long wording of my query, and hope to hear your thought :rolleyes::thanx:
As soon as you start asking about a single Quality Policy, Quality Manual, Management Review, etc then it sounds like you are talking about a single system. What is the advantage to multiple systems? It will cost more, take longer, and will likely lead to suboptimal results with each department trying to optimize their results at the possible expense of the others.
 
J

JaneB

Re: ISO 9001 certificates for a big government entity - one certificate for each dept

I don't think they all can share a common policy & a manual in particular since they all have different products, activities, inputs, objectives & systems to manage, they should have different policies and manual as well (IMO).
Why can't they share a 'common' policy?

Have common where it makes sense, have different where it makes sense.

I do second Sidney's view, and to me, it doesn't make sense adopting this 'department by department' viewpoint. BUT it is also possible that we simply don't have the info or the knowledge that the people at the top do who made the 'go individual' decision.

'Department' in a government sounds similar but can mean quite a different thing to its meaning in a corporate environment. Here at least, a government department - at least at the State and Federal level - is perhaps best compared to an entire company which is just one of a number of companies owned and run by a holding group.
 
S

samsung

Re: ISO 9001 certificates for a big government entity - one certificate for each dept

Why can't they share a 'common' policy?

Have common where it makes sense, have different where it makes sense.

I do second Sidney's view, and to me, it doesn't make sense adopting this 'department by department' viewpoint. BUT it is also possible that we simply don't have the info or the knowledge that the people at the top do who made the 'go individual' decision.

'Department' in a government sounds similar but can mean quite a different thing to its meaning in a corporate environment. Here at least, a government department - at least at the State and Federal level - is perhaps best compared to an entire company which is just one of a number of companies owned and run by a holding group.

Yes, I too second what Sidney suggested above but as the OP reports, decision reg. deptt. by deptt. certification has already been taken. The idea of not sharing a common policy was based on the assumption that each 'deptt.' will be treated is a separate entity having no connection whatsoever with one another but in reality it may not be correct. Unlike standalone entities, they must be sharing a lot in common, so why not to share a policy or a document in common.
 
A

adamson

Re: ISO 9001 Certification for a Big Government Entity - One Certificate for each Dep

A big government entity here in the Middle East is under the process for preparation to be certified against the ISO 9001:2008 standard,,, however, and due to the culture in such entities, they have decided to go for certification departmental wise, i.e. each department will go for certification separately!

The departments are of both types: support departments (IT, Finance, HR, Security), and core departments which are looking for the operations of the entity.

Having said so, I have some inquiries and points of discussions that I want to share with you guys:

1) The customers of the support departments will be mainly the other departments of the entity (internal customers) - any suggestions or hints on how to deal with this? They have already initiated customer satisfaction survey results for these (internal) customers to measure the satisfaction

2) What about HR responsibilities,,,, are they going to be considered as outsourced processes for all the departments (except may be for HR)? How can they deal with this,,,,, Same would apply on purchasing and Preservation of Product activities, and may be the Data Analysis part as it is being handled by one department.

Hi there,

I am in the same situation except we are the only department trying to get ISO. We are a Govt. medical store.

We depend on other depts for maintenance / filling of senior posts / vehicle availability / processing of invoices etc
As such also grappling with how to manage these interfaces, are they regarded as outsourced? or shared or simply provided (no choice)? and how do you ensure control ?
The feedback I got when I posted similar question was
1. Define what we want from them
2. Detrmine risk involved
2. Track / measure what we get
3. Initiate regular meetings / communicate deficencies
4. Result is an agreement but not really enforceable if things go wrong
5. Include these process interactions in QMS
6. Regard these inteactions as outside of the scope of the QMS.
7. Regard processes as "provided" not "outsourced"
Put another way...we can't have a "contract" or a formal "service level agreement" (no penalty if not meet needs), audits would not go down well (politics/culture) and cannot fall back on the other departments being ISO certified.
So bit stuck.
An example is that our invouces go through ministry of finance and then bank to pay suppliers. This can take months and may result in suppliers not providing products in the future. Implication is that we can't meet our customer requirements. However what can you do re bank. nothing.
Hope this helps and look forward to your thoughts....also sorry for longish reply
 
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F

firasali

Re: ISO 9001 certificates for a big government entity - one certificate for each dept

The certification body will deal with you that way you want it.
Either one mango in every basket or all mangoes in one basket.
Now each basket is an organization and any other are either customer or supplier.
As you go about if you begin to reach out to other basket for every little thing, you will begin to ask yourself, why cannot I have all the mangoes in one basket...
Every department perhaps is also not independent in business sense, meaning though it is a department, you are treating it as an organization in your case ..... :confused:

So so so .... why carry many baskets IF you can carry just one.
Since you say decided the best guide is the CB themselves, and they will be too happy to make some money with you if you want it your way.

I know, but this is the case and I can not help it, they are the customer, and I can not change this fact,,, thanks for sharing
 
F

firasali

Re: ISO 9001 certificates for a big government entity - one certificate for each dept

I don't think they all can share a common policy & a manual in particular since they all have different products, activities, inputs, objectives & systems to manage, they should have different policies and manual as well (IMO).

You think so? Can't we have just one manual with all the which inludes everything and to show the interaction and who's who? and same would apply to the quality policy
 
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