How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visits?

wessamsheta2000 · Mar 6, 2012

Hi all,
sorry if this subject is repeated, but I try hard to search about similar subject here and in the internet but unfortunately I failed.

Any way, what I want to speak about it today is "HOW you can evaluate your CB during their visits"

And what I am exactly want to evaluate not the auditors knowledge or experience or the criteria of findings issuance because this is not my problem.

1- My 1st problem is that I had (not have, because we just changed him lately) CB all what he cared about is the money !!!!!! and he can see majors infront of him and forget about it because he think that if he raised majors, he will lose us as a customer which ofcourse not our policy as respectable company and not accepted.

2- 2nd problem, During about 6 years of repeated visits, that CB not even once put some departments in his scheduele at all !!!!!!!!!, and believe me that dept.'s affect the product quality (design dept's !!!!!!!!!), is that Acceptable.
and also all his visits (suvelliance audits) is very short about a day maximum on company having 4 sites and about 1200 employees.

so how can I evaluate any CB and if there are common rules between me and him like "what is his real actions before and during registration visit and survillance visits" so I can evaluate the new CB coming to me.

Thanks.

Colin · Mar 6, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB)

It is always sad to hear stories like yours where organisations get so little satisfaction from their CB because I am sure they are a small minority of the audits that go on satisfactorily every day.

Still, you had the good sense to recognise the problem and change CB's - well done for that. :agree1:

When choosing a new one you can of course ask around other companies and see what their experiences are, get testimonials from people here on the Cove and you can also interview the CB. Ask them to send someone along and 'sell' their CB to you.

Make sure that you know what you want from a CB - in other words, be careful what you wish for. There may be some people in your organisation that were quite happy with the method of auditing chosen by your previous CB! :notme:

qusys · Mar 6, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visit

wessamsheta2000 said:
Hi all,
sorry if this subject is repeated, but I try hard to search about similar subject here and in the internet but unfortunately I failed.

Any way, what I want to speak about it today is "HOW you can evaluate your CB during their visits"

And what I am exactly want to evaluate not the auditors knowledge or experience or the criteria of findings issuance because this is not my problem.

1- My 1st problem is that I had (not have, because we just changed him lately) CB all what he cared about is the money !!!!!! and he can see majors infront of him and forget about it because he think that if he raised majors, he will lose us as a customer which ofcourse not our policy as respectable company and not accepted.

2- 2nd problem, During about 6 years of repeated visits, that CB not even once put some departments in his scheduele at all !!!!!!!!!, and believe me that dept.'s affect the product quality (design dept's !!!!!!!!!), is that Acceptable.
and also all his visits (suvelliance audits) is very short about a day maximum on company having 4 sites and about 1200 employees.

so how can I evaluate any CB and if there are common rules between me and him like "what is his real actions before and during registration visit and survillance visits" so I can evaluate the new CB coming to me.

Thanks.

I think you could ask for a meeting or call to discuss about your "requirements" and desiderata with CB. They will be happy to receive your inpust to improve its 3rd part auditing process.
Consider that the activities of Cb are monitored by higher level organization , for example with witness audit, where registrar auditors are assessed by external representative.

Marc · Mar 6, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB)

Colin said:
<snip> When choosing a new one you can of course ask around other companies and see what their experiences are, get testimonials from people here on the Cove and you can also interview the CB. Ask them to send someone along and 'sell' their CB to you.

Make sure that you know what you want from a CB - in other words, be careful what you wish for. There may be some people in your organisation that were quite happy with the method of auditing chosen by your previous CB!

And *always* require a copy of the CV (resume, if you will) of the auditor(s) which the CB is going to send.

Sidney Vianna · Mar 6, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visit

wessamsheta2000 said:
if there are common rules between me and him like "what is his real actions before and during registration visit and survillance visits" so I can evaluate the new CB coming to me.

Assuming that you are working with CB's that have proper accreditation, they should be following ISO 17021. That standard requires the CB's themselves to have management systems in place and give the CB's two options:

follow ISO 9001 themselves, slightly amended or
comply with option 2

Anyhow, the CB, operating in such a competitive marketplace should be VERY interested and RESPONSIVE to customer expectations and FEEDBACK.

wessamsheta2000 said:
CB all what he cared about is the money !!!!!! and he can see majors infront of him and forget about it because he think that if he raised majors, he will lose us as a customer which ofcourse not our policy as respectable company and not accepted.

Did you ever provide feedback to the CB about the auditor repeated softgrading practices? Was the auditor aware of your expectations for them to report the nonconformities as such? In principle, that's what they should be doing all along, but, who knows? Many misguided auditors and misguided registrants play the softgrading game which brings the credibility of the certification process into disrepute.

wessamsheta2000 said:
During about 6 years of repeated visits, that CB not even once put some departments in his scheduele at all !!!!!!!!!, and believe me that dept.'s affect the product quality (design dept's !!!!!!!!!), is that Acceptable.

If your scope of certification includes product design, this is not acceptable. It would be a MAJOR fault of the CB. But, and once again, did you EVER question the CB about their failure to assess the product design process?

wessamsheta2000 said:
and also all his visits (suvelliance audits) is very short about a day maximum on company having 4 sites and about 1200 employees.

This violates in a HUGE way the IAF MD5 document, which stipulates minimum audit time.

Is the CB in question accredited? By whom?

wessamsheta2000 · Mar 7, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visit

yes, by UKAS british

Another thing, I know right now the right duration in the ISO 9001 & 14001 but still has some inquiries:

- What about OHSAS 18001 duration, what is its following standard.
- and in the initial stage, are there any right actions shall he follow and on how many dept's shall be audited. moreover in the survillaince audits as kind of control.

wessamsheta2000 · Mar 7, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visit

Anyhow, the CB, operating in such a competitive marketplace should be VERY interested and RESPONSIVE to customer expectations and FEEDBACK.

Did you ever provide feedback to the CB about the auditor repeated softgrading practices? Was the auditor aware of your expectations for them to report the nonconformities as such? In principle, that's what they should be doing all along, but, who knows? Many misguided auditors and misguided registrants play the softgrading game which brings the credibility of the certification process into disrepute.

replying to this I totally agree with you :agree1:

about what CB lead us to when they are soft.

If your scope of certification includes product design, this is not acceptable. It would be a MAJOR fault of the CB. But, and once again, did you EVER question the CB about their failure to assess the product design process? This violates in a HUGE way the IAF MD5 document, which stipulates minimum audit time.

really thankyou about such very useful attachment info :applause:

wessamsheta2000 · Mar 12, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visit

hi all,
can any body please reply to my below mentioned inquiries:

Another thing, I know right now the right duration in the ISO 9001 & 14001 but still has some inquiries:

- What about OHSAS 18001 duration, what is its following standard.
- and in the initial stage, are there any right actions shall be followed and on how many dept's shall be audited. also in the survillaince audits as kind of control.

Thanks.

Jon-uk · Apr 4, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visit

wessamsheta2000 said:
Hi all,
sorry if this subject is repeated, but I try hard to search about similar subject here and in the internet but unfortunately I failed.

Any way, what I want to speak about it today is "HOW you can evaluate your CB during their visits"

And what I am exactly want to evaluate not the auditors knowledge or experience or the criteria of findings issuance because this is not my problem.

1- My 1st problem is that I had (not have, because we just changed him lately) CB all what he cared about is the money !!!!!! and he can see majors infront of him and forget about it because he think that if he raised majors, he will lose us as a customer which ofcourse not our policy as respectable company and not accepted.

2- 2nd problem, During about 6 years of repeated visits, that CB not even once put some departments in his scheduele at all !!!!!!!!!, and believe me that dept.'s affect the product quality (design dept's !!!!!!!!!), is that Acceptable.
and also all his visits (suvelliance audits) is very short about a day maximum on company having 4 sites and about 1200 employees.

so how can I evaluate any CB and if there are common rules between me and him like "what is his real actions before and during registration visit and survillance visits" so I can evaluate the new CB coming to me.

Thanks.

please note that reply as a CB auditor
to determine competancy there are two possibles available, firstly ensure your CB is UKAS accredited (or IAF members for none uk CB's), all CB auditors have to be assessed for compliance to iso 17021:2011 which is the CB's standard forcompliance, secondly ask for an auditor that is IRCA registered (or smmt for TS16949).
where you believe the CB auditor has not provided you with a 3 year cycle audit plan that covers all your processes within your scope of registration then it is your responsability to advise the auditor or CB of this, this is because the auditor may not be aware of those processes or the CB advised of any changes / revision to tthe companies scope of service.

lastly, if you are not happy with your CB then move to another - the CB i work for offers free certification transfers and as a IRCA lead auditor, if i see a major NC then i will raise one once i have ensured that it is a major and not a minor, this is a decision only a skilled auditor can make

Sidney Vianna · Apr 4, 2012

Re: How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visit

Jon-uk said:
all CB auditors have to be assessed for compliance to iso 27001:2011 which is the CB's standard for compliance

What?

Could it be that you meant ISO 17021, instead?

How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visits?

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