Controlled documents vs. Hardcopy documents printed "For Reference Only"

I need some of your expert opinion here. Here is the situation: Engineering documents have as there controlled source a computer network. Eng. docs are reviewed and approved and placed on the network for use by all. So far so good.

During an internal audit, binders of printed documents were found kepts by Engineers/drafters for ready reference. These binders are not identical and have been assembed with contents as determined by the individual. Some of the documents were old revisions.

The proposed fix for this is to revise a doc control procedure to indicate that paper copies from the network are not controlled and the user must verify the current revision of the document prior to use.

I think that if hardcopies have been determined to be needed for Engineers (or anyone) to perform there job, than control them. This to avoid making decisions with obsolete documents.

Your comments are very appreciated. Thanks!

You have a bigger issue than document control........

because any engineers who need to squirrel documents like this will not be checking into the latest version and stamping them etc won't make a deal of difference. I suggest the following: Take them all away! Select a member of the Engineering staff to be a document controller, train them on document control and make them 'process owner'. If you have someone who does engineering change control, they already 'know' the process. It's basically the same. I have done this with reasonable success. Get a good document control procedure that doesn't deal with stamping everything "Uncontrolled - for reference only" - That's a dumb thing to do!!

Then, get the engineers together and explain why they shouldn't be keeping obsolete documents - lay it on thick for them - all the issues of why they make mistakes by not having the latest documents for example. Find out why they don't like using the network. Is an issue of poor foldering/file structure that no-one has a standard for in Engineering? There appears to be a general lack of discipline and your Engineering management need to inject it pretty soon. I'm guessing, based on 30 years of experience that there's a bigger issue here!!

Andy

Hi mike5_5 and Welcome to the Cove,

Not a bad idea. We just finished converting all our QMS documents to pdf and placed them on a central server. We set the documents to print with a water mark stating printed copies were uncontrolled.

Why do they need binders with printed copies? Is this a problem with computer access? You already have the documents on a central server, why can't they access electronically?

I don't think it is a "dumb thing to do". Give it a try...see if it works. Better yet, interview the engineers and drafters and determine their needs...you might even find a better way. Don't forget, they will have to use what ever system is decided upon.

Just some thoughts.

AndyN said:

because any engineers who need to squirrel documents like this will not be checking into the latest version and stamping them etc won't make a deal of difference.

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Not sure what this means exactly due to missing punctuation, perhaps, but I'm one of those people who "squirrels" documents, and I am kept apprised of latest issues by a document control system that notifies me via e-mail when new issues are released. I simply find it more convenient to access my printed copies than to have to stop what's going on on my computer screen and bring up the document that way. If engineers--or anyone else for that matter--aren't willing to take the responsibility to verify having the latest release, the problem isn't document control.

AndyN said:

I suggest the following: Take them all away!

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Taking them all away doesn't solve the problem.

AndyN said:

Select a member of the Engineering staff to be a document controller, train them on document control and make them 'process owner'.

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This creates a sub-bureaucracy that also doesn't address the problem, which is the need for everyone to honor the system and make sure that only the latest release is used. If I can see a document on my screen, I can print it, and if it's more convenient for me to print it, that's what I'm going to do.

AndyN said:

I'm guessing, based on 30 years of experience that there's a bigger issue here.
Andy

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Exactly.

CarolX said:

Hi mike5_5 and Welcome to the Cove,

Not a bad idea. We just finished converting all our QMS documents to pdf and placed them on a central server. We set the documents to print with a water mark stating printed copies were uncontrolled.

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Allow me to add my greetings and salutations, Mike...welcome to the Cove.

Carol, great idea! Automatic identifiers when printing...we do the same thing. And have implemented a non-black ink stamp to indicate if a document/drawing is actually controlled.

Naturally, we have a list of each controlled hard copy location so that when there is an update, away we go to remove the old and in with the new.

CarolX said:

Why do they need binders with printed copies? Is this a problem with computer access? You already have the documents on a central server, why can't they access electronically?

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Personal experience, it may not be computer access...but rather human nature. We will do whatever we can to make our lives easier...no other species had a problem with going to bathroom in the forest, but we had to go and invent indoor plumbing. (okay, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea)

CarolX said:

I don't think it is a "dumb thing to do". Give it a try...see if it works. Better yet, interview the engineers and drafters and determine their needs...you might even find a better way. Don't forget, they will have to use what ever system is decided upon.

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Totally agree, Carol. Calling any one's idea "dumb" especially when they are asking for help is completely out of line. Not just in the Cove but in the real world, too.

One thing I have found with the engineers where I work is that they're on the phone quite frequently with contractors. Having a hard copy of a drawing (be it equipment or building or site layouts, etc.) is a lot more handy than having to ask the person on the other end of the phone to wait while you search for an e-file.

Just my thoughts on this.

Thanks for the welcome.

Our network speed is OK, Human nature, yes. We all like to feel the paper. It can be more convenient to access and use the paper copies.

The following is a snip from the proposed Eng. doc control procedure.

"Engineering shall maintain an electronic directory of all valid drawings available for production, including at least the date last revised, and revision number.
All non-electronic forms of engineering design documents are considered uncontrolled and can be considered for reference only. If an engineer, designer or drafter has a printed copy of such a document it is their responsibility to verify the current revision level when the document is used to make design decisions."

Note: No mension of stamping or otherwise marking of the printed documents is required.

mike5_5 said:

TThe following is a snip from the proposed Eng. doc control procedure.

"Engineering shall maintain an electronic directory of all valid drawings available for production, including at least the date last revised, and revision number.
All non-electronic forms of engineering design documents are considered uncontrolled and can be considered for reference only. If an engineer, designer or drafter has a printed copy of such a document it is their responsibility to verify the current revision level when the document is used to make design decisions."

Note: No mension of stamping or otherwise marking of the printed documents is required.

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Engineers tend to be rather linear lot (some of us are exceptions to that rule ) and if the stop sign isn't at the intersection, they don't stop.

In school we use to joke that if an engineering professor only wrote his name on the bulletin board and spent the rest of the lecture just speaking, the only notes we would have would be his name.

It may be beneficial to put that watermark of "uncontrolled etc etc" or maybe in the titleblock, to serve as a reminder to the enigneers. It requires minimal resources to implement and may come in handy later.

A little more on the resource-heavy side would be to control all hard copies that retained internally. Someone will need to be responsible for physically removing the drawings and inserting the new ones.

Don't go crazy on this issue. As Carol suggested, talk with the enginerds...ummm...neers.....they might be able to come up with a solution that keeps your system effective and keeps them a happy. A true win-win!

Yeah! Me Too. (i.e., WELCOME MIKE!)

Well, I've gotta say, in all my 30 days in this business, I've never seen a completely paperless system - especially in engineering! (OK, Roxane, other species in the forest are paperless )

We are a touchy feely people and NEED those hard copy drawings. What I think Andy was trying to say (and I don't think he meant any disrespect to any individual) was that the mere act of stamping something "reference only" does not improve the system. I also have never liked the idea. We (where I work) simply make a blanket statement that anything printed is uncontrolled and must be checked against the Master "Doohickey".

Each company however, has to weigh the risk vs. the benefits. Too often I've seen, when an auditor chafes at "squirreled away" documents, the knee jerk reaction is to come up with better controls - before the question is ever asked, "Have there been any serious problems related to this practice?" If not, leave it alone. Just put some blurb in the procedures that that is what's allowed. If it is a problem, then address better controls.

In my humble opinion anyway.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought so long on this I missed Andy's reply - You're doing it! Good. my risk vs. benefit point still stands though.

I are one

mike5_5 said:

I...The proposed fix for this is to revise a doc control procedure to indicate that paper copies from the network are not controlled and the user must verify the current revision of the document prior to use.... Thanks!

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I are an engineer.

Frankly I'd be deeply insulted at anything less than being expected to be able to find the latest version.

As has already been said "keep it simple" - make the engineers responsible for version control.

Our chief design engineer got caught with a stale rev paper copy by our TS auditor, he just said "me bad" and printed out the latest one. End of problem. The key here is they must accept responsibility.

Remember the good old days when we could afford doc control clerks?

Caster said:

IRemember the good old days when we could afford doc control clerks?

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Careful Caster...your showing our age...LOL .