Training Requirements for Senior Management - Are training records required?

Are training records required of senior managers?

Stevetucker said:

Are training records required of senior managers?

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Not according to my interpretation. Others may have another opinion, but I'm basing mine strictly on the ISO 9001 standard.

Do you think they have actually had any training?
Must have short memories.

Whether training records are required depends upon the training. For example, let's say a senior manager goes through APQP training. That should produce a record.

Stevetucker - What training, specifically, are you referring to?

Marc said:

Whether training records are required depends upon the training. For example, let's say a senior manager goes through APQP training. That should produce a record.

Stevetucker - What training, specifically, are you referring to?

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"Training" is, perhaps, a misnomer. When managers are "hands-on", should they read the procedures that describe the processes they are performing? If yes, then should the fact that they're read the procedures be documented?

Stevetucker said:

"Training" is, perhaps, a misnomer. When managers are "hands-on", should they read the procedures that describe the processes they are performing? If yes, then should the fact that they're read the procedures be documented?

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That's not a senior manager. But, in this case, it should be documented.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stevetucker) Are training records required of senior managers? Not according to my interpretation. Others may have another opinion, but I'm basing mine strictly on the ISO 9001 standard.
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Al, could I ask you to clarify your opinion? To me, it seems the ISO 9001 standard would disagree. ISO seems to say it pretty clearly, even without having to interpret:

6.2.1 General​

Personnel performing work affecting product quality shall be competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience.
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6.2.2 Competence, awareness and training​

The organization shall
a) determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting product quality,
e) maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience (see 4.2.4).


Unless, you are making the argument that the work of senior managers does not affect product quality, they certainly appear to be included. I certainly expect them to be. Deming argued they affected product uality more than the operators did. Could you please comment? Thanks.​

hjilling said:

Quote: (Originally Posted by Stevetucker) Are training records required of senior managers? Not according to my interpretation. Others may have another opinion, but I'm basing mine strictly on the ISO 9001 standard.
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Al, could I ask you to clarify your opinion? To me, it seems the ISO 9001 standard would disagree. ISO seems to say it pretty clearly, even without having to interpret:

6.2.1 General​

Personnel performing work affecting product quality shall be competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience.
​

6.2.2 Competence, awareness and training​

The organization shall
a) determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting product quality,
e) maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience (see 4.2.4).


Unless, you are making the argument that the work of senior managers does not affect product quality, they certainly appear to be included. I certainly expect them to be. Deming argued they affected product uality more than the operators did. Could you please comment? Thanks.​

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That's my argument!

Al Rosen said:

That's my argument!

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Why do you feel the work of senior managers does not affect product quality?

Almost all of the judgemental errors, design errors, process errors, snap decisions, etc. that lead to significant problems, costs and recalls, are made by upper and senior managers (except at the very large companies).

I would argue just the opposite. The rank and file operator can make few descisions affecting product quality. At many companies the process controls all that. But senior managers routinely make decisions related to product and systems. I spend a significant part of each audit working with these guys to ensure they "get it." And, I write nc's against them if warranted.

hjilling said:

Why do you feel the work of senior managers does not affect product quality?

Almost all of the judgemental errors, design errors, process errors, snap decisions, etc. that lead to significant problems, costs and recalls, are made by upper and senior managers (except at the very large companies).

I would argue just the opposite. The rank and file operator can make few descisions affecting product quality. At many companies the process controls all that. But senior managers routinely make decisions related to product and systems. I spend a significant part of each audit working with these guys to ensure they "get it." And, I write nc's against them if warranted.

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That's true, but what kind of training do you verify for the Comptroller? You can't convince me I need training records for him.