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Some Related Topic Tags (Not all threads are Tagged)
capa (corrective and preventive action), corrective action (ca), preventive action (pa)
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  Post Number #17  
Old 13th August 2006, 11:27 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,360
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Bev D View Post

...

ISO has a somewhat ambiguous defintion but it DOES require a documented system with objective evidence of Corrective Actions to eliminate the causes of nonconformities and prevent their recurrence and Preventive Actions that eliminate the causes of potential nonconformities to prevent their occurence.

Then the Registrars come in and insist that we comply with that. If we disagree or have a different interpretation then WHAMMO! we get a finding requiring Corrective action. and that's where it all gets "out of hand" as you contend.

Umm, you did a nice job of describing the ISO definition accurately. Why then, would you develop an alternate definition that does not comply with that definition?

If ISO defines it pretty clearly (just as you described) then I as an ISO auditor am supposed to assess whether you are doing those things? Where is the "Whammo?"

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  Post Number #18  
Old 13th August 2006, 11:31 PM
Laura M's Avatar
Laura M

 
 
Total Posts: 762
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by hjilling View Post

Since FMEAs are already a very good exercise, rewriting them again as preventive actions adds no value. I believe the kind of preventive actions the standard is promoting is just like corrective actions, but BEFORE the failure.

In other words, look for next week's failures this week, and take action while there is still time. Now that, would be value-added, in my opinion.

I agree - but what I was saying is write the PA procedure to reflect preventive measures already in place. The recommended action part of the PFMEA and completed of the action meets all the requirements of PA.

Taking action on SPC charts that are drifting is also PA.

So do you need a form that looks like a CAR form? Or just describe and have evidence of preventive action. That was my point.
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  Post Number #19  
Old 13th August 2006, 11:40 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,360
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Laura M View Post

I agree - but what I was saying is write the PA procedure to reflect preventive measures already in place. The recommended action part of the PFMEA and completed of the action meets all the requirements of PA.

Taking action on SPC charts that are drifting is also PA.

So do you need a form that looks like a CAR form? Or just describe and have evidence of preventive action. That was my point.

I understood your comment, and sure, all of these things are preventive in nature. So is preventive maintenance, and calibration. But, if that is what they intended your answer to be, why would they have given it its own clause section?

The way they describe it obviously asks for preemptive corrective actions. Determine where potential failures lie, and do a corrective style action PREEMPTIVELY. Therefore they called it PREventive action, in the same format as corrective action. Why make it something different?
  Post Number #20  
Old 13th August 2006, 11:56 PM
Laura M's Avatar
Laura M

 
 
Total Posts: 762
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

I'm just saying that you don't need to fill out a preventive action 'form' to have evidence of meeting the preventive action requirements.
  Post Number #21  
Old 14th August 2006, 06:15 AM
Bev D's Avatar
Bev D

 
 
Total Posts: 3,458
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by hjilling View Post

Umm, you did a nice job of describing the ISO definition accurately. Why then, would you develop an alternate definition that does not comply with that definition?

If ISO defines it pretty clearly (just as you described) then I as an ISO auditor am supposed to assess whether you are doing those things? Where is the "Whammo?"
Well, if you read the posts carefully I wasn't saying that *I* personally woudl have a different interpretation - but responders previously to me including the original post supplied the different interpretations. You as anuditor would hol dthese individuals to the standard (as you said) and would issue findings. THIS is where the 'out of hand' stuff comes from (in my opinion from reading a thousand posts on the topic.) Some peopel jsut want to improve things no matter what you call them: correction, corrective action or preventive action. Unfortunately those people who don't worry about strict definitions and compliance also find themselves trying to get registered adn then the definition matters - only they dont' get it. That's the whammo! They think they are doing the right thing, but they're not exactly per the standard. reread the first posting...
  Post Number #22  
Old 14th August 2006, 10:48 AM
Rezzi

 
 
Total Posts: 16
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Greg B View Post

Those of you that have had the pleasure of knowing me these past three years will know that I HATE this subject with a passion and wonder why ANYONE would bring it up AGAIN!!!! I am a moderator for this fair thread and wish I weren't

YES! The wording is rubbish but no matter what words they used, we (the quality profession) would surely debate it as we do every other clause in the standard. It really is up to the individual company to get it right for THEM. Correct issues as they arise and Prevent issues before they arise(at least TRY). Semantics are the biggest problem here, with: "When does one become the other?" So for all of you that are wrangling for an argument in cyberspace then start your own forum and you can start by arguing these beauties:

Does a horse really Pull a cart or Push it?
Is a glass half full or half empty? If it's half full then when does it become half empty?

IMHO people should leave the CAPA topic alone for fear of being attacked unmercifully by the semantics police...PLEASE!!!
Dear Greg,
I'm so sorry. Its all my fault to start this thread. Is it possible to take this thread back. I was trying to express my dislike of "I'm right-you're wrong" kind of discussions but appearantly I wasn't aware of that I actually have contributed to one more so please if you are abale as a moderator to stop this tread pls do so.
  Post Number #23  
Old 14th August 2006, 11:39 AM
CarolX's Avatar
CarolX

 
 
Total Posts: 2,168
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Rezzi View Post

Dear Greg,
I'm so sorry. Its all my fault to start this thread. Is it possible to take this thread back. I was trying to express my dislike of "I'm right-you're wrong" kind of discussions but appearantly I wasn't aware of that I actually have contributed to one more so please if you are abale as a moderator to stop this tread pls do so.
Rezzi -

I will jump in on Greg's behalf for the time being.

Please - do not appologize for starting this thread. As you can see, it is a hot topic, and I think that some really good discussions have bee had in this thread.

You have a valid point about the "I'm right - you're wrong" discussions that have prevailed in the past - that it really shouldn't matter - but most of us come from companies that have, at least, implemented 9K2K - and there is a significant difference between the two subjects in the standard. If a newbie comes here looking for information on how to satisfy the standard, we must address them as two seperate subjects. That is one of the reasons that ca and pa have seperate boards here at the Cove.
  Post Number #24  
Old 14th August 2006, 12:44 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 8,572
Re: CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) discussions getting out of hand

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Bev D View Post

Some peopel jsut want to improve things no matter what you call them: correction, corrective action or preventive action.
That is not the problem. The problem is EXACTLY the opposite. As demonstrated NUMEROUS times in this Forum, some people still think that fixing the non-conforming situation is corrective action (rather than correction). If auditors would allow that go go unchecked, it would set us back 3 or 4 decades in terms of quality management practices. An organization that does not understand the need for TRUE corrective action and keep doing re-work and repair, thinking that they are doing "corrective action" is not doing ANY improvement whatsoever. So, by enforcing the definition and concept of TRUE corrective actions, the auditor is FORCING the organization to raise the bar and become more effective.

On the preventive side, does anybody disagree that, in the perfect World, we would have 100% preventive action and 0% corrective action? Does anybody disagree that preventing a problem from happening altogether is way better than preventing it's recurrence? Still, by and large, the mind set out there is: If ain't broke don't fix it. So, imo, this discussion is very valid and is is NOT a semantics issue. It is a mind-set and cultural issue.
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