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Nonconformances and Defects - Operator Error, System Error, or both? - Page 3


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View Poll Results: In the event of a NC or defect, what/who is at fault?
"The system" is always at fault. 31 15.35%
"The system" is at fault ~ 90-96% of the time. 66 32.67%
"The system ~ 80%", operator ~ 20%. 66 32.67%
It's about even. 39 19.31%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this Poll because you are not Logged In.


Some Related Topic Tags (Not all threads are Tagged)
nonconformance, operator error, defects and defectives, system errors
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Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average. Display Modes
  Post Number #17  
Old 7th October 2002, 11:56 AM
Michael T's Avatar
Michael T

 
 
Total Posts: 323
Ummmm... what?

Quote:
M Greenaway said:

Sorry - where does compassion come into it ?

Martin... please tell me you are kidding...

Tis getting close to Christmas and Santa is watching...



Mike

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  Post Number #18  
Old 7th October 2002, 01:17 PM
SteelMaiden's Avatar
SteelMaiden

 
 
Total Posts: 4,196
Quote:
M Greenaway said:

Sorry - where does compassion come into it ?

and you British are always making fun of us yanks for the inability to appreciate ironic or subtle humor.....

guess you had to be there for the thread where Marc said he wanted to see what kind of avitar I would use before he died.

Have a good one!
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  Post Number #19  
Old 7th October 2002, 02:36 PM
M Greenaway's Avatar
M Greenaway

 
 
Total Posts: 1,657
Seriously guys - should we accept that our recruitment process gives us a bunch of idiots to work with purely on compassionate grounds ?

Even ISO9001 says something loose about competency requirements.

OK having recruited an idiot lets do all we can to improve him/her, but lets also improve our recruitment process - thats what its all about.

Dont recall a clause from the 94 standard, or a section from the 00 standard, or one of the eight principles, or Demings system of profound knowledge, or Jurans quality handbook, or the business excellence model, or six sigma, lean manufacturing, 5 s, Kaizen, etc etc etc ever mention compassion.
  Post Number #20  
Old 7th October 2002, 03:08 PM
Carl Exter's Avatar
Carl Exter

 
 
Total Posts: 37
Even the best systems cannot prevent operator errors. But the system ought to be able to contain the consequences of those errors, and the system ought to be able to prevent repeated errors. Just my two cents...
  Post Number #21  
Old 7th October 2002, 03:58 PM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,084
Quote:
M Greenaway said:

Seriously guys - should we accept that our recruitment process gives us a bunch of idiots to work with purely on compassionate grounds ?

Even ISO9001 says something loose about competency requirements.

OK having recruited an idiot lets do all we can to improve him/her, but lets also improve our recruitment process - thats what its all about.

Dont recall a clause from the 94 standard, or a section from the 00 standard, or one of the eight principles, or Demings system of profound knowledge, or Jurans quality handbook, or the business excellence model, or six sigma, lean manufacturing, 5 s, Kaizen, etc etc etc ever mention compassion.
Martin,

Maybe I'm the idiot here. You seem confused about the "compassion" issue and I wasn't -- until your posts made me question myself. Here's my take: Since Steel mentioned "compassion" first, I assumed the "compassion" came in when her company helped the ficticious Joe with his work, took up a collection so he could visit his family and mourn the loss of a loved one, and helped him buy the plane tickets. Not a result of any required act by any ISO standard, Q guru, handbook, business excellence model, etc. but just a thoughtful, nice act of human decency, no more, no less.

If you suggest ole Joe was an incompetent "idiot" because of the mistake he made, and/or that HR failed in the hiring process...well, if you think that in this case I sugggest that you've either been in the "sauce" or else you simply don't get it. I'll let it go at that.
  Post Number #22  
Old 7th October 2002, 04:28 PM
SteelMaiden's Avatar
SteelMaiden

 
 
Total Posts: 4,196
Quote:
Mike S. said:

Martin,

Maybe I'm the idiot here. You seem confused about the "compassion" issue and I wasn't -- until your posts made me question myself. Here's my take: Since Steel mentioned "compassion" first, I assumed the "compassion" came in when her company helped the ficticious Joe with his work, took up a collection so he could visit his family and mourn the loss of a loved one, and helped him buy the plane tickets. Not a result of any required act by any ISO standard, Q guru, handbook, business excellence model, etc. but just a thoughtful, nice act of human decency, no more, no less.

If you suggest ole Joe was an incompetent "idiot" because of the mistake he made, and/or that HR failed in the hiring process...well, if you think that in this case I sugggest that you've either been in the "sauce" or else you simply don't get it. I'll let it go at that.
What you said...

Compassion referred to in my post was that as a supervisor, I would be able to put myself in Joe's place and understand why he was not at top form I certainly hope that nobody in this forum would be so cold as to call someone an idiot because a family member died and he goofed some stuff up. You wouldn't really call this incompetence would you M?

If so, I'm glad I work where I do, because a year ago, this same scenario happened to me. My Mother passed away suddenly, I screwed up plenty, and my coworkers did collect a huge amount of money in twenty minutes to make sure I got back to the funeral with my children. (I had just found out that my husband was terminally ill, and we had racked up a huge amount of medical bills that were not totally covered by insurance) Thank God, or whomever you put your faith in that this was not viewed as my being incompetent.
  Post Number #23  
Old 8th October 2002, 04:18 AM
M Greenaway's Avatar
M Greenaway

 
 
Total Posts: 1,657
Sorry all.

My response was to Energy's post, not Steel's.

quote

"For those who would advocate "idiot proofing" the process, I say that it is not very compassionate to instruct HR to amend that hiring process to make sure that that they don't hire idiots! "

Hope this puts my reply into context !
  Post Number #24  
Old 8th October 2002, 08:26 AM
energy

 
 
Total Posts: n/a
Laughing NICE WEATHER ISN'T IT?

Quote:
M Greenaway said:

Sorry all.

My response was to Energy's post, not Steel's.

quote

"For those who would advocate "idiot proofing" the process, I say that it is not very compassionate to instruct HR to amend that hiring process to make sure that that they don't hire idiots! "

Hope this puts my reply into context !
M,

It was sarcastic humor intending to show that not even HR can screen out all "idiots". Relax. Your boss made the right choice.

In actuality, the prospective employee is dressed nice and everything appears to be in order. You make the decision to hire. At best, you covered all the bases and looked for those little things that suggest something may be "not quite right" with the applicant. Personally, I have not recommended hiring a lot of people. About 10 employees in my long working life. There were 2 that I would have liked to do over. After a few months, just long enough to make it past the "temporary" status, the real person begins to emerge. Errors, attitude and 180 deg turn from what I thought I saw during the interview. That's a 20% error factor for me! When I look around at work and see the performance of some hires, it is obvious that a few slipped through the cracks. Another factor to consider is the compensation issue. If you hire cheap, as a rule, you get what you deserve. My use of the word "idiot" was intended to show what I think of people who continue to operate outside the system because it's crock to them. They feel that they are just fine as they are and do not need to address competency and training and mistakes. "Hey, I'm only human."
Sorry for any misunderstanding regarding the use of the word "IDIOT"!!
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