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Nonconformances and Defects - Operator Error, System Error, or both? - Page 6


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View Poll Results: In the event of a NC or defect, what/who is at fault?
"The system" is always at fault. 31 15.35%
"The system" is at fault ~ 90-96% of the time. 66 32.67%
"The system ~ 80%", operator ~ 20%. 66 32.67%
It's about even. 39 19.31%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this Poll because you are not Logged In.


Some Related Topic Tags (Not all threads are Tagged)
nonconformance, operator error, defects and defectives, system errors
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Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average. Display Modes
  Post Number #41  
Old 15th October 2002, 09:26 AM
energy

 
 
Total Posts: n/a
back to square one

Quote:
M Greenaway said:

I totally agree with the fella.

Corrective Action is about creating robust systems to people variation, not blaming stupid operators and hoping that your criticism will stop it happening again - now that IS compassion !!
Personally, I was talking about after you have done an exhausting study that simply points to Operator Error. Nobody is advocating applying OE at first glimpse. In many instances, the system was adequate for years and all of a sudden it's not? And, I respectively add, your past posts regarding foregoing CA/PA on every single thing could come into play here. Let's not start the thread all,over again.

I disagree with the Fella!

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  Post Number #42  
Old 15th October 2002, 10:37 AM
M Greenaway's Avatar
M Greenaway

 
 
Total Posts: 1,657
Energy

The decision when or when not to take CA is based on identifying causes as special or common, and relating these to process capability. Correctly identifying root cause is a related issue, but a slightly different kettle of fish.

I guess we will have to agree to dis-agree. I know I am probably in the minority, but in good company.......
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  Post Number #43  
Old 15th October 2002, 11:37 AM
energy

 
 
Total Posts: n/a
Hehehe... How so?

Quote:
M Greenaway said:

Energy

Correctly identifying root cause is a related issue, but a slightly different kettle of fish.
M.,

Maybe I'm experiencing a blockage in my information input system. I thought this discussion was about using Operator Error as an unacceptable Root Cause because it's supposed to be always the System's fault. Please enlighten me as to where I lost my way. I just hate wandering about in the dark
  Post Number #44  
Old 15th October 2002, 11:37 AM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,116
Martin,

Do you consider being against the opinion of the guru Dr. Deming and 97% of the practicing quality professionals in the Cove as being "in good company"? One could take that as a veiled insult but I won't.

Please, who exactly is your "good company"?
  Post Number #45  
Old 15th October 2002, 11:52 AM
Slowpoke

 
 
Total Posts: 5
Whoa....have to add my two cents here:

There is operator error, and I also believe that you could design a system to prevent operator errors once you have identified them. But is it worth the expense?

Economics will dictate how robust we design our processes and to what extent we will tolerate operator errors. When they do happen, and they will, then reaffirm the process' capability with the customers' expectations. If there is still alignment, then accept the error as the honest mistake it probably was and move on to more important issues.

Still believing in the innate goodiness of mankind..........
  Post Number #46  
Old 15th October 2002, 12:06 PM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,116
Slowpoke,

Sounds to me like you have your feet on the ground. Good post.

Martin,

By the way, Martin, if you want to continue to disagree that is certainly your right and I respect it. But please, if you believe in your position so strongly, explain to me how the scenerios that I brought up previously (page 3, next to last post) fit your explanation of a system failure. I really want to understand your viewpoint, even if I don't share it.
  Post Number #47  
Old 15th October 2002, 02:14 PM
SteelMaiden's Avatar
SteelMaiden

 
 
Total Posts: 4,196
Quote:
M Greenaway said:

I totally agree with the fella.

The analogy of Joe's cock up due to a relation dying is ridiculous. How on earth would you get to that conclusion from a proper 5 why process from the reported fault ??

Production manager, "Joe, it's good to see you back. We were all very sorry to hear of your loss, is there anything we can do for you?

Joe, "No, I'm doing OK, I'll sure miss that ol' geezer, he was my hero as a kid."

Production manager, "Yeah, that's a tough one, you make sure to let me know if you need another day, or something, OK?"

Joe, "sure thing, PM, I appreciate everything the company has done for me. And, by the way, I heard about the screw-ups with that packaging the day I left. I'm sure sorry about that. I know we had a perfect record, 10 years and no mis-packed boxes. I knew what I was supposed to do, I just kind of zoned out. Ya know? I couldn't believe it when I heard he died, there's no excuse other than I just wasn't thinking about my job."

PM, "It's alright, Joe, we know that you didn't mean to mess up, and your record is great. There was no harm done, everything was accepted, they were just concerned that we were cutting corners by not adding the amount of packing material they requested. It isn't going to cost us a thing now that they know what happened."

Joe, "Thanks, PM, I was real worried when I realized what I'd done, that's a big account and I'd hate to make 'em mad."

OK, so now tell me again why there had to be an in-depth investigation, 5Y or anything else? If you know what caused the problem, it is an isolated incident, the effect is minimal and the guy admits that it was a brain f@%t, what more do you want?

Call me lazy, but that would be good enough for me, as long as there are people involved in the process, there will be mistakes made. Computers don't program themselves, just look at Mickeysoft
  Post Number #48  
Old 16th October 2002, 03:57 AM
M Greenaway's Avatar
M Greenaway

 
 
Total Posts: 1,657
Mike

I actually voted in the 96% range, agreeing with Dr Deming, which is where my quip about good company was aimed. Reviewing the actual results of the poll however I am in fact in the majority.

So what are we arguing about ??

Enough anyway
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