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Consultant Person who implemented ALSO the Registrar Auditor?


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conflict of interest, consultants and consulting, registrars (registration bodies)
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  Post Number #1  
Old 25th September 2014, 12:41 PM
electronicsak

 
 
Total Posts: 4
Please Help! Consultant Person who implemented ALSO the Registrar Auditor?

Hello,
I'm hoping someone can help me find exact ISO 9001:2008 language/standard information that states the person who implements an ISO system cannot also be the registrar. I have a situation where we hired a company to implement our entire system. They then had a second company do an external audit and issue our certificate. The main problem is that it was the SAME PERSON who did both the consultant and auditing (he worked for both companies??). Thanks for your help.

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  Post Number #2  
Old 25th September 2014, 01:16 PM
Marcelo Antunes's Avatar
Marcelo Antunes

 
 
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Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

That?s exactly what should not happen, because there?s no way to guarantee impartiality.
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  Post Number #3  
Old 25th September 2014, 01:23 PM
electronicsak

 
 
Total Posts: 4
Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

Is there somewhere in the standard or within ISO that I can be referred to? I need to know exactly where they discuss impartiality/conflict of interest.
  Post Number #4  
Old 25th September 2014, 01:27 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 8,459
Let Me Help You Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by electronicsak View Post

Hello,
I'm hoping someone can help me find exact ISO 9001:2008 language/standard information that states the person who implements an ISO system cannot also be the registrar. I have a situation where we hired a company to implement our entire system. They then had a second company do an external audit and issue our certificate. The main problem is that it was the SAME PERSON who did both the consultant and auditing (he worked for both companies??). Thanks for your help.
It doesn't - because ISO 9001 has NOTHING to do with certification of the QMS. What you are seeking is in ISO/IEC 17021. Unless the CB is accredited under the IAF, compliance to ISO/IEC17021, then all bets are off!
  Post Number #5  
Old 25th September 2014, 01:30 PM
pldey42's Avatar
pldey42

 
 
Total Posts: 429
Re: Consultant/person who implemented ALSO the registrar?

Registrars (or over here in the UK, "Certification Bodies", CBs) are either accredited or not, by an Accreditation Body (an AB).

In the UK our AB is UKAS; in the USA it's ANAB. They exist in over a hundred other countries, but not all.

The AB audits the Registrar (or CB) from time to time against, not ISO 9001, but ISO 17021. ISO 17021 says, essentially, that the registrar or CB must never get into the conflict of interest you describe. If the Registrar or CB continues to pass audits, they are "accredited" and the AB keeps a list of accredited registrars on its website.

Here's ANAB:

http://www.anab.org/certification-bodies.aspx

Some registrars aren't accredited.

If your registrar is accredited you can complain about the conflict of interest to the AB. They will probably ask you to complain to the registrar first.

Well, that's how it's supposed to work. Mileage varies. Bare-faced conflict of interest like this though is very, very rare in my experience of the accredited audit world.

If your registrar is not accredited you're on your own.

Hope this helps,
Pat
  Post Number #6  
Old 25th September 2014, 01:39 PM
electronicsak

 
 
Total Posts: 4
Re: Consultant Person who implemented ALSO the Registrar Auditor?

Thank you for the replies. It says they are accredited by both IAF and IAC. Our certificate specifically says IAC.
  Post Number #7  
Old 25th September 2014, 01:39 PM
pldey42's Avatar
pldey42

 
 
Total Posts: 429
Re: Consultant Person who implemented ALSO the Registrar Auditor?

I should add that splitting the consultancy and the registrar audit amongst two separate companies isn't enough.

The registrar has to make sure the auditor personally isn't in a conflict of interest. That too is in ISO 17021. (When I worked with a major CB the period for which I would not have been allowed to audit a client from my previous consulting job was two years, enough to avoid conflict of interest.)

There are consulting companies that split consulting and auditing amongst two separate legal entities, of which just the auditing entity is accredited. They are careful, I'm told, not to send the same person to the same client. I suppose it could be a mistake on their part. Or maybe they employ two people by the name of John Smith?

Sorry, I don't have a copy of ISO 17021 to hand, so I can't refer you to the clause numbers. You can buy it from your local standards institution, e.g. BSI or ANSI.

Hope this helps, and good luck,
Pat
  Post Number #8  
Old 25th September 2014, 01:43 PM
pldey42's Avatar
pldey42

 
 
Total Posts: 429
Re: Consultant Person who implemented ALSO the Registrar Auditor?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by electronicsak View Post

Thank you for the replies. It says they are accredited by both IAF and IAC. Our certificate specifically says IAC.
Go back to source and check. Certificates can be forged. I'm not even sure IAF do accreditations, don't think they do. Don't know who IAC are. Some unaccredited outfits are good at, how can I put it, deception?

Pat
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