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APQP and PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start? - Page 2


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Some Related Topic Tags (Not all threads are Tagged)
apqp (advanced product quality planning), ppap (production part approval process)
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  Post Number #9  
Old 10th December 2014, 08:13 AM
cdj100

 
 
Total Posts: 2
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

Thanks a lot for quick reply!

But, still have some ?-s

1.The PPAP submission requirements are agreed upon between you and the Customer during the contract review stage.
The Customers typically dictate what documents and items they want from you.

That means PPAP levels?

2.PSW has to be signed until SORP, but it can include some missing points with further actions?

3.And the next, probably, stupid question: APQP is related only to GM,Ford,Chrisler. So, if you are thier supplier it means-you automatically obliged to follow this APQP.

What if you are f.e. Nissan supplier, what kind of guidance you have to folow then?

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  Post Number #10  
Old 27th April 2015, 09:02 AM
rsd252

 
 
Total Posts: 7
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

Hi, I am also new to PPAP process and have had a couple of customers asking me for them to be completed. My company has less than 20 people and we produce custom proximity sensors. I am doing some research as to how much to charge for these or if we should be charging at all. I have gotten a list of the customer's required documents for a level 3. The 1st customer that asked for a PPAP has 6 different parts with us and we have done business with them for a number of years. We are currently working on getting set up with ISO 9001. I'm just not clear how much we should be charging because we have been doing business with the customer and send them parts on a regular basis. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!
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  Post Number #11  
Old 27th April 2015, 11:44 AM
Miner's Avatar
Miner

 
 
Total Posts: 3,959
Look! Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

From the customer's perspective, it always angered me when suppliers charged for PPAP. As a Tier 1 automotive supplier, we were required to obtain a PPAP approval to receive payment for the customer paid tooling.
  Post Number #12  
Old 27th April 2015, 01:34 PM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 750
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rsd252 View Post

Hi, I am also new to PPAP process and have had a couple of customers asking me for them to be completed. My company has less than 20 people and we produce custom proximity sensors. I am doing some research as to how much to charge for these or if we should be charging at all. I have gotten a list of the customer's required documents for a level 3. The 1st customer that asked for a PPAP has 6 different parts with us and we have done business with them for a number of years. We are currently working on getting set up with ISO 9001. I'm just not clear how much we should be charging because we have been doing business with the customer and send them parts on a regular basis. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!
I guess it depends what is involved. If it is just a compilations of documents already in existence, then $0. But if you need to run a special run and create all new documents, then a modest charge might be in order. I'll agree with Miner though. Very rarely do we charge separately for a PPAP. On existing projects, it is just a compilation of documents to make it "official. On new projects, it is built into the price. Good luck.
Thanks to Golfman25 for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #13  
Old 27th April 2015, 08:39 PM
ncwalker's Avatar
ncwalker

 
 
Total Posts: 184
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

As a Tier 1 to automotive who helps produce our PPAPs and who also receives PPAPs from our suppliers, I will echo Miner's thought.

If you come to me as a supplier and "suggest" I pay you to do a PPAP because it is "special," I am going to bust your butt and call out every little thing wrong and make it as painful on you as possible. It's just bad form to do it.

There IS a cost, however, associated with it. And that's the cost of compiling all the documentation - making it pretty. And you should be accounting for this in your quote in your "development costs." But if you are considering the WORK behind it a cost, and I mean the metrology lab time to do the capability studies, the time to do the Gage R&Rs, etc. That should NOT be an additional cost. You should be doing that kind of work regardless of customer requirements.

Why? It protects YOU as the supplier, and ensures you are making what you think you are making. That's just being careful with your product. You think a PPAP is costly? Try a sort where you don't have good containment because you didn't check your work.

I don't mean to sound harsh to you personally, but I DO want to sound harsh before you go and think you should tell your customer they should pay for your PPAP. You can do whatever you wish, it's your business. And you may get lucky. Wouldn't bet on it ....
Thanks to ncwalker for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #14  
Old 27th April 2015, 08:52 PM
ncwalker's Avatar
ncwalker

 
 
Total Posts: 184
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

I am also going to add this, because it sounds like you MAY be a little stuck and these PPAP requests are coming after the fact. I'm not sure what you position is in your company relative to quotes and charges, and more importantly, I don't know the relationship you have with your customers buyer and their supplier quality engineer. That said, you should evaluate the following advice ...

NORMALLY the "relationship" you have with your customer is with the faces of their company that interact with you - the supplier quality engineer, the scheduler (who is not often involved in approvals of exchanges of money outside of regular production) and the buyer. To EVERYONE else, you are just another "faceless supplier" in that organization.

The whole "I'm going to bill them for the PPAP" will get "out" in your customers company. Because the finance guys (who aren't used to seeing this) will say "What the hell is THIS???" And it will be discussed in their meetings, etc. And suddenly you will not be the "faceless" supplier. You will have a face - of a greedy bastard trying to nickel/dime them. You DON'T want that.

So how do you get paid IF this is a surprise? IF you have been a good supplier willing to work with your SQ and buyer, odds are they will appreciate the relationship and WORK with you. Again, I don't know you or them, but .... What you do is go to them for help, tell them you did not expect this new requirement and it is going to hurt you. And suggest that they could make up some of the cost on engineering changes or replacement tooling. IF what you are saying is true and this IS a new change or new requirement that they are forcing on you and your buyer/or SQ isn't a total "by the book" schmuck, they'll help you out.

But ... if you are just whining about it and this is NOT a surprise or a new request, AND you aren't the "good supplier" you think you are, then this could get tricky real fast.

Most people who sit on the boundary of customer/supplier - the SQs, the buyers, etc WANT to foster a good working relationship. Everyone needs "favors" every now and then. But the people within the customer organization? Not so much. You're just another name/number report. They think there's a million suppliers out there just like you.

The "asking the customer to pay for PPAP" puts the people you WANT on your side - the SQ and the buyer - at odds with you. You do NOT want that, because those are the folks that will help you navigate "their" system when it hits the fan.

Hopefully that's more helpful. :-)
Thanks to ncwalker for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #15  
Old 28th April 2015, 08:25 AM
Sue789

 
 
Total Posts: 31
Please Help! Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

I am also new to PPAP and my Company has put in place PPAP for our manufacturing suppliers who are ISO 9001 approved.

Being a medical device company in the process of gaining a certificate for ISO 13485 are we still required to complete supplier audits as well as PPAP?
  Post Number #16  
Old 28th April 2015, 11:16 AM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 750
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sue789 View Post

I am also new to PPAP and my Company has put in place PPAP for our manufacturing suppliers who are ISO 9001 approved.

Being a medical device company in the process of gaining a certificate for ISO 13485 are we still required to complete supplier audits as well as PPAP?
This is a good example of how "PPAP" has been commandeered by other industries. While everyone has some type of product approval requirements, the automotive industry came up with an entire book of specifications required for a "PPAP." It is thus important to distinguish whether you need an automotive PPAP or something else.
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