The Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums
Auditing support and management processes
UL - Underwriters Laboratories - Health Sciences
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Auditing support and management processes
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > > >
Forum Username

Elsmar Cove Forum Visitor Notice(s)

Wooden Line

Auditing support and management processes


Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Sponsor Links




Courtesy Quick Links


Links Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in the quest for knowledge and support:

Jennifer Kirley's
Conway Business Services


Howard's
International Quality Services


Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting, and
Medical Devices Expert Forum


Bob Doering
Bob Doering's Blogs and,
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


Ajit Basrur
Claritas Consulting, LLC



International Standards Bodies - World Wide Standards Bodies

AIAG - Automotive Industry Action Group

ASQ - American Society for Quality

International Organization for Standardization - ISO Standards and Information

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology


Some Related Topic Tags
audits and auditing, internal audits, management processes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  Post Number #1  
Old 12th June 2018, 04:26 PM
rogerpenna

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Question Auditing support and management processes

So far, in our company internal audits, we audit areas/departments, instead of auditing processes. Probably because we have processes written as procedures, but unlike a process map, when writing, you can make a process less cross-sectional across departments. In the writing, it can focus on a single area/department.

I do intend to change this and be more process oriented, and audit processes

We do have mapped with low granularity our Core, Support and Management processes. (they are not modelled yet however, as they are only written as procedures. Also, from my perspective, it seems several SubProcesses were written as subtopics of the Procedures that represent macro Processes)

My question is... to what extent should non-core processes have KPIs created, have their inputs and outputs, etc, mapped and written?

And specially, to what extent should non-core processes be audited in ISO?

If ISO objective is the client, should audits spend time with processes which are not considered to add value to the client, as Core Processes do?

Sponsored Links
  Post Number #2  
Old 12th June 2018, 06:18 PM
John Broomfield's Avatar
John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,590
Yin Yang re: Auditing support and management processes

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

So far, in our company internal audits, we audit areas/departments, instead of auditing processes. Probably because we have processes written as procedures, but unlike a process map, when writing, you can make a process less cross-sectional across departments. In the writing, it can focus on a single area/department.

I do intend to change this and be more process oriented, and audit processes

We do have mapped with low granularity our Core, Support and Management processes. (they are not modelled yet however, as they are only written as procedures. Also, from my perspective, it seems several SubProcesses were written as subtopics of the Procedures that represent macro Processes)

My question is... to what extent should non-core processes have KPIs created, have their inputs and outputs, etc, mapped and written?

And specially, to what extent should non-core processes be audited in ISO?

If ISO objective is the client, should audits spend time with processes which are not considered to add value to the client, as Core Processes do?
Roger,

Your system comprises processes that directly add value for your client and processes that enable these process to add value.

Recruiting and training is a good example of support processes that are essential to the effectiveness of your system.

So, both core and support processes should be audited for their effectiveness and conformity. Before they are audited processes are monitored and corrected as necessary and this means that the people responsible for these processes need to know what their processes are meant to achieve.

Process objectives are essential but starting with your core processes and core process objectives start with your organization’s or project’s mission.

Best wishes,

John
  Post Number #3  
Old 12th June 2018, 10:58 PM
rogerpenna

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: Auditing support and management processes

can we leave anything out of auditing?

isn´t part of the manual defining the scope of the QMS?

if we must obviously include core processes... then support processes because these are essential for the core processes to function properly and add value to the client... and I would guess several management processes somehow either also help the business run (and thus add value to client) or basically are part of the ISO requirements themselves (like strategic planning, risk assesment, etc)........

... then what's the use of defining a scope for the QMS? It will always end up being 100% of the company's processes, won´t it?
  Post Number #4  
Old 13th June 2018, 12:41 AM
John Broomfield's Avatar
John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,590
Yin Yang Re: Auditing support and management processes

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

can we leave anything out of auditing?

isn´t part of the manual defining the scope of the QMS?

if we must obviously include core processes... then support processes because these are essential for the core processes to function properly and add value to the client... and I would guess several management processes somehow either also help the business run (and thus add value to client) or basically are part of the ISO requirements themselves (like strategic planning, risk assesment, etc)........

... then what's the use of defining a scope for the QMS? It will always end up being 100% of the company's processes, won´t it?
Roger,

In defining the scope of your management system what processes do you have in mind to omit from internal audit and why?

We may find these processes are completely unnecessary work.

Mind you, not every process may be subject to external audit and this is why many organizations have two scope statements.

Thanks,

John
  Post Number #5  
Old 13th June 2018, 07:35 AM
rogerpenna

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: Auditing support and management processes

The question was more on the theoretical side... I mean, why define scope if everything is important?


And if a process not needing to be in the scope is useless, then it should be eliminated. But if it's eliminated, then again the scope will be 100% of the processes of the company.

IF I could, I would eliminate probably Accounting and some Financial processes. They are important but highly bureaucratic. They are mostly about doing the same stuff on time, not more efficiently. And as that, it's quite impossible to find relevant indicators... although maybe I am thinking more in terms of areas/departments here.
  Post Number #6  
Old 13th June 2018, 08:46 AM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 8,938
Let Me Help You Re: Auditing support and management processes

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

The question was more on the theoretical side... I mean, why define scope if everything is important?


And if a process not needing to be in the scope is useless, then it should be eliminated. But if it's eliminated, then again the scope will be 100% of the processes of the company.

IF I could, I would eliminate probably Accounting and some Financial processes. They are important but highly bureaucratic. They are mostly about doing the same stuff on time, not more efficiently. And as that, it's quite impossible to find relevant indicators... although maybe I am thinking more in terms of areas/departments here.
When you audit a process, there are many, many supporting processes which also need to be present and checked during an audit. The purpose of a defined scope should include these things and at the same time provide for limits for the auditor to 1) enable to audit objective to be fulfilled and b) limit the extent to which these support activities are being audited.

It may be that you have a different way to do you audits, but for the past 30 years, having a scope is best practice to ensure a complete audit.
  Post Number #7  
Old 13th June 2018, 10:16 AM
John Broomfield's Avatar
John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,590
Yin Yang Re: Auditing support and management processes

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

The question was more on the theoretical side... I mean, why define scope if everything is important?


And if a process not needing to be in the scope is useless, then it should be eliminated. But if it's eliminated, then again the scope will be 100% of the processes of the company.

IF I could, I would eliminate probably Accounting and some Financial processes. They are important but highly bureaucratic. They are mostly about doing the same stuff on time, not more efficiently. And as that, it's quite impossible to find relevant indicators... although maybe I am thinking more in terms of areas/departments here.
Roger,

That is why I asked what processes (work) you'd like to exclude.

Accounting processes should ensure suppliers are paid only for conforming products and that your company is paid per the contract so it can invest in improvement. Accounting processes also provide management with information so they can avoid trading while insolvent. But you may also find that accounting already is audited for compliance with GAAP.

Your list of processes (in your separate post) mentions budgeting and this process interacts with cost accounting I would think.

Of course, you'll be ensuring that your processes are monitored and corrected (by those responsible) and audited (by someone who is more independent) according to each processes' importance, reliability and maturity. But we try to keep in the system only those processes that add value or enable value.

Please remember that processes are work carried out by animal, human, machine or a combination of any two or three of these. Using this definition you'll see that an area or department cannot be a process.

As to granularity we see activities or tasks that are parts of processes and that processes tend to be cross-functional.

I would question if an organization without a purpose and scope is really is able to work as a system.

Organizations used to exclude some business processes from their QMS but big-Q thinking exposed the fallacy of this and ISO 9001:2015 has finally caught up.

Best wishes,

John
  Post Number #8  
Old 14th June 2018, 12:17 AM
AMIT BALLAL's Avatar
AMIT BALLAL

 
 
Total Posts: 202
Re: Auditing support and management processes

As John mentioned, for example, If Accounting process has any risks associated to QMS (such as supplier won't supply next lot of material, unless payment of earlier material is made), then Accounting has to be included in scope of QMS and therefore has to be audited. Similarly, if IT process has a risk of loss of data/records related to QMS, then it also has to be included.
Standard doesn't give the freedom to exclude any process from auditing. But you can define frequency of audits based on importance or processes, as per the categorization already done by you.
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > > >

Bookmarks



Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Emoticons are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Auditing Sales and Marketing Processes and Technical Support SpartanBio Canada Medical Device Regulations 2 20th January 2014 07:41 PM
Auditing Management Support - ISO 9001:2008 dbulak ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7 9th January 2013 11:58 AM
Terminology - Business Processes vs. Support Processes vs. Management Processes yogshastri Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 9 20th April 2012 02:52 PM
Objectives, Targets and KPI for COP, Support and Management Processes pinpin - 2009 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6 13th January 2008 07:10 AM
Quality Management System (Core) Processes and Administration / Support Processes Paul Simpson ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 57 27th March 2002 02:19 PM



The time now is 05:06 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



Misc. Internal Links


NOTE: This forum uses "Cookies"