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TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
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TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
TS 16949 - Allow Auditor to see Performance Evaluations?
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  Post Number #73  
Old 21st October 2003, 04:13 PM
db's Avatar
db

 
 
Total Posts: 2,590
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mike S.

db,

Your mantra, which I like so much I have copied, is "show me the shall". Here it is: "...shall maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills, and experience". What do you tell the auditor who says "where are your records of education for Sam in the Manufacturing Dept. over there"?

NOTE: I'm not saying your idea doesn't make sense from a practical or common-sense standpoint, I'm only debating ISO's requirements.
There are two "keys" here. First, is the word "appropriate". I would argue that to generate a record just for the sake of generating a record is not "appropriate". If Sam attends some "appropriate" training, then I would have a record. If he doesn't then there will be no record. The second key is "experience". Why could I not use normal production records to show Sam's "experience"? I have to generate these records anyway, and they do, in fact, show Sam's performance.

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  Post Number #74  
Old 21st October 2003, 04:15 PM
db's Avatar
db

 
 
Total Posts: 2,590
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by ddhartma

I have to agree Wes. Competence should be the analysis of an individual's education, background, training and (where practicable) observed ability (may not be practicable when interviewing a possible new hire).
I would tend to agree as well, with the only exception being the record generation part.
  Post Number #75  
Old 21st October 2003, 05:07 PM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,247
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by db

There are two "keys" here. First, is the word "appropriate". I would argue that to generate a record just for the sake of generating a record is not "appropriate". If Sam attends some "appropriate" training, then I would have a record. If he doesn't then there will be no record. The second key is "experience". Why could I not use normal production records to show Sam's "experience"? I have to generate these records anyway, and they do, in fact, show Sam's performance.

Don't know if this makes the discussion any easier or not, but ISO's document "Guidance on the Documentation Requirements of ISO 9001:2000,
Document: ISO/TC 176/SC 2/N525R March 2001" says:
___________________
Clause & Record required

6.2.2 (e) Education, training, skills and experience

___________________

I would say that "appropriate" in 9001 means that you decide how detailed the records are, and in what medium (paper, computer, etc.) -- stuff like that. But since it does not say "or" there had better be some record of all 4 items - education, training, skills, and experience.

Again, I'm talking only about ISO's shalls -- not what would work in the real world. But, hey, I'm no registrar auditor and I'm not an ISO bigwig, I'm just a dummy trying to interpret another of the (IMO) ambiguous clauses of 9001.

No offense is intended toward anyone or their opinion!
  Post Number #76  
Old 22nd October 2003, 08:32 AM
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Randy Stewart

 
 
Total Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Clause & Record required

6.2.2 (e) Education, training, skills and experience
No argument here, it is the competence issue that I have a real problem with. I do not see a requirement for a "record" to show competence. The records required are what has been deemed necessary to show "achievement of competence". And as stated prior - it doesn't ensure competence.

Quote:
Dr. Deming would have argued that nonconforming product is more likely the product of a bad system, out of the control of the individual operator.
Agreed!

The Toyota View
"We get brilliant results from average people managing brilliant processes. We observe our competitors often get average (or worse) results from brilliant people managing broken processes." - source - Dr. James Womac

So the true question becomes - where do you want to focus your resources?
  Post Number #77  
Old 22nd October 2003, 09:51 AM
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Tom W

 
 
Total Posts: 414
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Deming would have argued that nonconforming product is more likely the product of a bad system, out of the control of the individual operator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:

Agreed!

The Toyota View
"We get brilliant results from average people managing brilliant processes. We observe our competitors often get average (or worse) results from brilliant people managing broken processes." - source - Dr. James Womac

So the true question becomes - where do you want to focus your resources?[/
_________________________________________________________________
I would also agree if you were getting registered to Dr. Deming's philosophy or to Toyotas'; however TS2 requires you to have both a continually improving system, and competent work force.

We can debate all day (or weeks) about if a record is needed or not. There is no right or wrong answer, just which battles you are willing to fight with your registrar. If the registrar doesn't ask for a record for this, then you have succeeded in the step that you do not need a record. But again I would caution those who think that competence is measured by conforming product. This is simply not correct as stated by several posts, competence of the employee can only get you so far. The system is what produces conforming product on an ongoing basis. Take one employee out and replace him with another and they should be able to continue to produce conforming product if the system is solid. (I think it would also help if the employee can chew gum and walk at the same time as well).

The original comment delt with a system that a company uses employee reviews as the RECORD for competence, yet wasn't sure about showing this type of record to the auditor. Staying in that context, can you say you measure competence, yet not show evidence of it. I would think that you could line out any confidential information on a couple of the reviews and show them the evaluation of competence topics.
  Post Number #78  
Old 12th January 2018, 12:23 PM
QChas

 
 
Total Posts: 73
Re: Allow Auditor to see Performance Evals?

Try this during your next audit .......
If the company gives them a paycheck they must be competent. Why would you pay someone that isn't competent?
  Post Number #79  
Old 13th January 2018, 04:26 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,351
Re: Allow Auditor to see Performance Evals?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by QChas View Post

Try this during your next audit .......
If the company gives them a paycheck they must be competent. Why would you pay someone that isn't competent?
Competent people typically cost more. If having a paycheck meant competence, half of the people out there must be either unpaid volunteers or slaves.
  Post Number #80  
Old 13th January 2018, 07:01 PM
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AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 8,973
Laughing Re: Allow Auditor to see Performance Evals?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by QChas View Post

Try this during your next audit .......
If the company gives them a paycheck they must be competent. Why would you pay someone that isn't competent?
Hahaha! That's a good one!
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