Control of Sales Documents that go to customers?

msimpson · Apr 11, 2008

I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.
I was having a discussion this morning with my Sales and Marketing guy about how we control those documents that go to customers. Sales Data sheets, etc. He's adamant that it's is outside of the ISO system and that it needn't be controlled by our official document control guy, which I'm fine with since that's me. However, I'm bothered that the Sales side has created an US vs Them situation and I wonder how we can make this work for everyone and still not get whacked during an audit.

Thoughts? I've been through this in the past, but in the other instances the sales guys were willing to be brought into the fold and work with us, not as a separate entity.

SteelMaiden · Apr 11, 2008

Advertising is advertising, just like the spring Sears catalog is probably not going to have the same prices that the same things will have in the summer. This stuff is sent out with an understanding of "this is where we are now (or maybe even a definitive time period). What do you want sales to do? go and get every price book they ever sent to customers when they release new ones? Now, on the other hand, if you are using those same books in-house, I would expect to see that you were all using the same one, there was absolutely no confusion about what book was used, and no old, outdated ones sitting next to the phone. :2cents:

Us vs. them works both ways. Don't micro manage, but do try to make sure that all understand the other side's views.

Sidney Vianna · Apr 11, 2008

It depends on the content of the document. If, for example, these sales documents contain "performance" data for your product, it is critical that the numbers are not false. If a customer will buy a product from you, based on your advertised numbers, they should be truthful.

I have seen, more than once, marketing ordering brochures made, based on an early specification for an upcoming product, so they could mass market it, during a trade show. During the product verification and validation cycles, it became clear that the early intended performance was not reached. The company had to apply thousands of stickers on the brochures with the new (factual) performance specs. To say the least, it did not look professional.

From a control standpoint, I would not expect to see the distribution being controlled, but the actual content of the data being reviewed by people other than sales. They obviously have an interest in inflating the positives of the product. But advertising should be truthful. We know very well that a large percentage of customer dissatisfaction happens because of misleading advertising. And many law suits, as well.

Doug · Apr 11, 2008

If we think of ISO as being an all encompassing approach to managing a Business System vs. a Quality System (managing good parts/bad parts), then nothing is ouside the realm of ISO.

However, that being said, I agree with Steel's comment about not micro-managing. Be careful not to place your organization or your position in a non-value added situation that can't be maintained.

:caution:

msimpson · Apr 11, 2008

SteelMaiden said:
Advertising is advertising, just like the spring Sears catalog is probably not going to have the same prices that the same things will have in the summer. This stuff is sent out with an understanding of "this is where we are now (or maybe even a definitive time period). What do you want sales to do? go and get every price book they ever sent to customers when they release new ones? Now, on the other hand, if you are using those same books in-house, I would expect to see that you were all using the same one, there was absolutely no confusion about what book was used, and no old, outdated ones sitting next to the phone.

Us vs. them works both ways. Don't micro manage, but do try to make sure that all understand the other side's views.

I'm not talking about advertising, I'm talking about definitive performance specs and product drawings that we update on a continuing basis. The only way that we know they've been updated or given to customers is that sales says so and that they handle it.

I'm not trying to micro manage, far from it, but I want to present a united front when it comes to auditing, so it looks like we're all on the same path. I feel that it's a telling detail that when sitting with an auditor we have to call the Sales VP in CA, because the Document COntrol manager has no idea how those are managed and we don't know if the customer is getting the latest version of a product spec.

msimpson · Apr 11, 2008

Doug said:
If we think of ISO as being an all encompassing approach to managing a Business System vs. a Quality System (managing good parts/bad parts), then nothing is ouside the realm of ISO.

However, that being said, I agree with Steel's comment about not micro-managing. Be careful not to place your organization or your position in a non-value added situation that can't be maintained.

I totally agree, and again I'm not micro managing...I'm all for other people handling thier own projects, but I think as company policy we should understand and document the method, in case that guy gets hit by a bus...
That's the sticking point, he's basically told me to mind my business and he'll handle any audit... huh?

Coury Ferguson · Apr 11, 2008

I don't think that ISO9001:2000 was created to manage good vs bad parts. The Standard is meant to identify the business process and provide consistency with the processes, but there is no guarantee on the products being good vs bad, in my opinion.

As for the original question:

msimpson said:
I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.
I was having a discussion this morning with my Sales and Marketing guy about how we control those documents that go to customers. Sales Data sheets, etc. He's adamant that it's is outside of the ISO system and that it needn't be controlled by our official document control guy, which I'm fine with since that's me. However, I'm bothered that the Sales side has created an US vs Them situation and I wonder how we can make this work for everyone and still not get whacked during an audit.

Thoughts? I've been through this in the past, but in the other instances the sales guys were willing to be brought into the fold and work with us, not as a separate entity.

I would sort of agree with the Sales and Marketing guy, only to this avail:

If they are brochures of the company's products, I don't think they would need to be controlled, unless they could be misconstrued/misleading.

If they identify specifications/limitations of your current products, than I feel they should be controlled, because the represent actual data (e.g. Load, psi, flow, or something, etc).

If you feel there is a need, and it is best for the company, by all means, talk to them and convince them (sell them) on why. In my opinion.

Doug · Apr 11, 2008

OK, I'm tempted to say "Then let him handle it".
I've done that on occasion.
The audit results to the Sales department may give them a better understanding of requirements. :2cents:

msimpson · Apr 11, 2008

Sidney Vianna said:
It depends on the content of the document. If, for example, these sales documents contain "performance" data for your product, it is critical that the numbers are not false. If a customer will buy a product from you, based on your advertised numbers, they should be truthful.

I have seen, more than once, marketing ordering brochures made, based on an early specification for an upcoming product, so they could mass market it, during a trade show. During the product verification and validation cycles, it became clear that the early intended performance was not reached. The company had to apply thousands of stickers on the brochures with the new (factual) performance specs. To say the least, it did not look professional.

From a control standpoint, I would not expect to see the distribution being controlled, but the actual content of the data being reviewed by people other than sales. They obviously have an interest in inflating the positives of the product. But advertising should be truthful. We know very well that a large percentage of customer dissatisfaction happens because of misleading advertising. And many law suits, as well.

That's exactly the issue...He argued the point, saying that nothing in the standard says he has to control the product documents. I tried to explain that in fact they are corporate records and are subject to audit and some level of revison control. I don't want him to bow to me and make everything a "QS" document, etc...but I do not think it's unreasonable that he document his methodology and make it official, in case he leaves and we can have continuity.

msimpson · Apr 11, 2008

Doug said:
OK, I'm tempted to say "Then let him handle it".
I've done that on occasion.
The audit results to the Sales department may give them a better understanding of requirements.

This is currently my thought process. I have a lot of work to do to get the factory floor and engineers, who are begging for help, up to par, without worrying about someone that's not interested.
Thanks.

Control of Sales Documents that go to customers?

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